Not Separate but Related (Kin with Marie Mitchell)
Illustration by Ben McDonald from the original interview with Marie in 2018
This month: Kin by Marie Mitchell. I met Marie in the days before the book was published in June and we reflected on grief, demanding more from attitudes to Caribbean food in the UK and the importance of flavours at the heart of her recipes.
Welcome back to the Lecker Book Club. Every month I’ll pick a newly released food related book and talk to the author about the process of writing it. I’ll also be writing about it on Substack and Patreon. Join me there as well!
You can listen to the previous episode i made with Marie here.
Kin is out now. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
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Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
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This transcript is autogenerated by Descript and may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Lucy: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove welcome back to the Lecker Book Club. One of my most anticipated books this year was Kin by Marie Mitchell. Anyone who's ever eaten Marie's food at one of her supper clubs, pop ups or private dinners will know what an incredible original chef she is. And her attention to detail means that her recipe development and writing are impeccable.
[00:00:34] It's such a pleasure to cook something from a book that ends up tasting almost as delicious as the food the writer has made for you themselves. And for this reason alone, Kin is going to be a book that I come back to again and again for years to come.
[00:00:47] Marie: I wanted there to be a real sense of kinship and that's how I look at the islands.
[00:00:52] As we're kin, rather than being separate, we're, we're related, so we have our own quirks and nuances, but yet still we're related to each other. So kin felt like the true embodiment of the way in which I like to think about the Caribbean, and I think many others do, but particularly in terms of my perspective, it just felt like the right word to summarise that, as well as then also being a
[00:01:19] Lucy: I spoke to Marie a few months ago in the days before Kim came out in June this year. I actually interviewed her in the same room just over five years ago, which felt poignant. And so I wanted to begin our conversation from that point. What's changed for her since then?
[00:01:38] Marie: Baby and book! That's the main things, right?
[00:01:41] Baby,
[00:01:41] yeah, and also mummy. Yeah. We lost mummy, which was Yeah, so sad. Huge. Yeah, rubbish. Actually had a moment today, randomly, uh, not food related, but um, finally got measured. Went to get my, my breasts measured. Oh my god. And um. A bra that fits. I know. I haven't done that since pre pandemic. I don't get this very often, but I um, When the, uh, very lovely lady went to get some, another one to try on, I put my t shirt on to, you know, got to check to see what it looks like with the clothes.
[00:02:13] And I was like, oh my god, it looks great. So I was like, immediately went to pick up my phone to take a photo and it, I forgot for a second. I just forgot. And
[00:02:21] I
[00:02:22] was like, oh, because the lot, I, that's what you, well, not everyone does, but. Yeah, it's the person you'd show. Yeah, I was always speaking to mum. I mean mum would either be with me or I'd send her messages and she'd be like, Oh, yeah, that's a good one.
[00:02:33] No, no, that doesn't look nice. So it just hit and then I just had a little cry. Yeah, I was like trying to calm down before she came back. But it's just funny. I definitely was like, right, I need to write something about this because it really made me think of those moments. That are so completely normal and you slightly forget that there's, you know, Because that norm, normality doesn't exist anymore.
[00:02:56] Yeah. It's
[00:02:57] so inbuilt.
[00:02:59] Lucy: Yes. I guess that's the thing, isn't it? It's like your sense of, that idea of normality is like forever, no longer going to be present. Yes. But you can't adjust to it.
[00:03:07] Marie: Yes. It's the first because quite often they happen when you lose someone or you're grieving it, whether that's actual death or relationships or whatever, partnerships, that, uh, something coming to an end and there being any sort of grief.
[00:03:22] I think. Those firsts usually happen very quickly in quite quick succession. So the ones that do happen that are much later, it's quite fascinating. The concept that you do, the idea that you'd forget something that has completely changed your life.
[00:03:40] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:03:41] Marie: It's quite, yeah.
[00:03:43] Lucy: Yeah, that's a strange sort of tension, isn't it?
[00:03:45] It
[00:03:46] Marie: is, it is, it is. But yeah, so lost mummy, but then gained a wee little adorable human being, and um, and now a book! A book! A real book! So there's lots of, lots of positives, lots of sadness, but
[00:04:02] Lucy: yeah,
[00:04:03] Marie: all kind of. sitting side by side.
[00:04:05] Lucy: Yeah, you know, I'm not going to dwell on the previous interview for the whole interview because that's a bit of a weird, like, listen back to a director's cut.
[00:04:14] But yeah, it did really strike me because you talk in it about, you know, this kind of, you talk about uncertainty and doubt and feeling like, you know, the idea of not having formal qualifications in what you've chosen to do is maybe something you felt like was holding you back psychologically, if not literally, but then.
[00:04:34] At the same time listening back to it, there's so much certainty and so much confidence in the way that you talk about it. And I do think that's really interesting. And I don't know, how does it feel to have that, this reminder of that time?
[00:04:48] Marie: It's quite fascinating because actually I did a, I did a job yesterday and I was doubting myself a little bit when I was there because I was in a male dominated kitchen.
[00:04:56] They were all really lovely but you know, you step into a space and very quickly. you can revert back to a version of yourself that you know isn't actually valid anymore. But what I did come out of it with was I did the job and it was, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was great. Always could be better because I'm always striving for better.
[00:05:15] I was gonna say a perfectionist, but that doesn't exist. Trying to reframe that.
[00:05:19] Lucy: I love that. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.
[00:05:21] Marie: Always trying to aim for better for myself rather than strictly perfectionism. Cause it's, that is a very dangerous place. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about that and then. Feeling as if I'm failing because I'm not getting to this place that's open.
[00:05:34] That's imagined really and truly.
[00:05:36] Lucy: It's arbitrary, yeah.
[00:05:37] Marie: But equally, definitely still wanting to push myself and develop. But it was, I actually found it was reassuring after the fact, because then I was like, oh Marie, you are competent. You do actually know what you're doing. So I'm hoping that When I step into those spaces again, I don't allow that.
[00:05:56] But I think it's normal. I think this is quite a sensitive time anyway. There's a level of vulnerability.
[00:06:00] Lucy: It's very vulnerable, yeah.
[00:06:03] Marie: Yes. I think, I think if, not if it was just a cookbook, because there are many amazing books and they're not just cookbooks, but I think if it wasn't so deeply personal, I'm sure there would be some nervousness and a little bit of vulnerability because you're still putting yourself out there, aren't you?
[00:06:17] But I feel like there's a lot of me that's going out. So even though I'm very excited. There is a little bit of vulnerability that's creeping in and also the book comes out and a couple days later It's mum's birthday.
[00:06:28] Lucy: So yeah, just the time of year. Yes. Yeah.
[00:06:31] Marie: Yeah, very beautiful because I actually think I was actually quite happy when I It was originally meant to be out in March.
[00:06:38] We pushed it back, right? And I was Very happy when I heard the 6th. I heard the 6th of June. Felt like it was meant to be. Exactly. She's kind of part of it then. And she's so present. So present. So present. And that was a very conscious thing. But even if she was still here, she would have been very, very, very present.
[00:06:59] Did you ever meet Mum?
[00:07:00] Lucy: Yes, because we did that Guardian thing. And she was you and her. Oh my god, yes! And then I did come to her Pop's kitchen. Yes! Like, Way back in the day and yeah I met her then so yeah she'll just always live through what you do.
[00:07:14] Marie: Yes and it's funny she is, I look at Marcy and her mannerisms and behavior are so similar.
[00:07:22] It's quite, I know that it's like nature nurture but when you're looking at your child you're like you're just like my mum. It's quite a weird thing but also deeply reassuring and quite comforting.
[00:07:37] Lucy: Yes. If a little uncanny at times.
[00:07:42] Marie: I'm sure I'll be rethinking those words when she hits the teen years.
[00:07:48] Lucy: Absolutely. She'll be, she'll be parenting you. I mean, she does.
[00:07:54] Marie: Ready. No mummy. Okay.
[00:07:57] Lucy: So. It's a book about family.
[00:08:00] Marie: It is.
[00:08:02] Lucy: Why did you choose the word Kin for the title?
[00:08:04] Marie: So the
[00:08:05] original working title was Home, and I knew that was getting there but it wasn't quite right and then, because it's family but I've really thought about that word and what it means to me.
[00:08:19] I kind of look at it in two ways. So I, we have relatives and we have family.
[00:08:25] Lucy: That's a nice distinction.
[00:08:26] Marie: Yes.
[00:08:27] And sometimes they are those related to you and sometimes they're chosen. And I think by when thinking about that and the way in which Those people who have influenced me and who are really deeply vital now and have been for many, many years or newer because you can sometimes meet people and there's a, such a quick, deep connection.
[00:08:48] I wanted there to be a real sense of kinship and that's how I look at the islands as we're kin rather than being separate. So we have our own quirks and nuances, but yet still we're related to each other. So Kin felt like the true embodiment of the way in which I like to think about the Caribbean. And I think many others do, but particularly in terms of my perspective and, um, It just felt like the right word to summarise that, as well as then also being a reflection of my own Kim, being my immediate family, and then also those that have obviously influenced the work too.
[00:09:28] Lucy: And it feels like, particularly appropriate because I do feel like, Your work, historically, has been so centred around, like, those family spaces and family in, like, again, this very, sort of, not loose, but expanded sense. So, you know, you did Pop's Kitchen, the supper club with your parents, you did Island Social Club, which was very much, kind of, intended to create a space to explore these ideas of the islands of the Caribbean through food.
[00:09:57] It's almost, sort of, like The idea of, like, private cooking in a public space.
[00:10:02] Marie: Ooh, that's such
[00:10:03] a beautiful description. We'll have to use that at some point, we'll come at you. But I feel like that,
[00:10:07] Lucy: no, no need. You can have that one on me. But yeah, when I was trying to sort of reflect on why I wanted to ask you about the title, like it did feel, it almost feels rhetorical because it is, it does encapsulate What you've done, sort of so neatly and yet so kind of messily at the same time.
[00:10:26] Marie: That's so, yeah,
[00:10:28] someone said to me on the weekend that, What will be amazing when one one element that's quite fascinating when when you if you write a book and it goes out into the world is that lots of people will see things in the work that you might not have done consciously or even been aware of and That is fascinating because that has started to happen and it's stunning But I suppose that's the that's the That's the part that's vulnerable, isn't it?
[00:10:52] Yeah. Because that's it, you let it go.
[00:10:54] Lucy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:10:56] Marie: That's, yeah, that's amazing. Because actually one, one of the things I do talk about is that I very much want to take people on a journey with me because it is a, I, I say that selfishly I started doing this because I wanted to know more about my identity.
[00:11:10] And, um, I will never know enough and I'll never know everything but I'm continuously trying to move and evolve and, and, and that is, you're very much coming on that journey with me so it's beautiful to hear that that title encapsulates the things I've been doing and what I hope to continue to do.
[00:11:30] Lucy: Yeah it feels very, there's a real like generosity in it I think so yeah.
[00:11:35] The kind of opening essay of the book, We Connect, you talk about being obsessed with legacy. Yes. How do you think food fits into that for you?
[00:11:46] Marie: Well, I talk about history being one of the, well, food being one of the purest forms of history. And I think people could easily take that phrase or sentence and manipulate it in the sense that then it could be like, well, actually it's not because that evolves and change.
[00:12:04] I mean that if we're able to really look at Recipes or processes within recipes and food you can really trace kind of where it's been.
[00:12:17] Yeah,
[00:12:19] and yes, you'll have variants and Things will move and shift slightly, but I think it's a really beautiful way of looking at history that doesn't necessarily let one's personal Opinions kind of dictate what it is.
[00:12:37] We then choose from it because history really is it's not You objective. It's very much depending on who, who deems it important, unless sometimes you're able to unearth things that someone else thought was important, but that obviously wasn't popular so you don't know about it. So that's, I kind of felt as if food was the kind of chance to really, or I think that food is an opportunity to really look at history without the human influence kind of getting involved.
[00:13:06] Lucy: You know, this is a very personal book, as you said, but there is a lot of historical research in it, right? Um, how did you go about kind of fusing those two?
[00:13:19] Marie: God, it's complex, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:13:20] I think,
[00:13:22] I think the fusion comes from just wanting to get a bit more context for myself and then, um, applying that in my own life.
[00:13:33] And then just probably conversations with family, and then trying to bring that into the work with context. So it's kind of, they both kind of flip back and forth really. And the legacy part, I'm sure some people can think, legacy could, again, be deemed as something that's almost, not problematic, but can kind of seem like a bit of a non phrase or non word.
[00:13:57] And I say that to mean that it's as if, because it's who or what we want to create. can vary.
[00:14:07] You
[00:14:07] know, people can look at the idea of legacy in a very, in very different perspectives. I suppose for me, I talk about the fact that this, the reason why I was obsessed with it is because I want people to know those that were so important to me.
[00:14:19] And again, it's not even necessarily kind of specifically about myself. It's for those that have kind of already gone to create this marker of experience and cement it in I think that's what I'm obsessed with because I think so much of our history, particularly when I think about Caribbean people, but I suppose in a wider context, black people, so much of that has been dictated by others and so much of it has been lost because of others.
[00:14:53] So I'm really fascinated with trying to capture bits and pieces of people outside of the lenses that have been created for us.
[00:15:02] Lucy: Yeah, that's really beautiful. And also, like you're saying about cementing it, like history, um, Rory always says to me that history tells you as much about the time in which it was written as it does about the time that it's about.
[00:15:18] So I think even just like, you know, you putting a pin to vastly simplify it, you putting a pin in, you know, the things that you're talking about now in this current context is important for, as a legacy for future people. Generations, right?
[00:15:32] Marie: Yeah, it is. Oh, that feels powerful.
[00:15:35] Lucy: Yeah, it's a powerful book,
[00:15:37] Marie.
[00:15:38] gotta break it to you.
[00:15:40] Marie: Oh, thank you. Don't know what I've done there. Unleashed it. It's out there now. Well, it's not out there quite yet. But in a matter of days. A matter of days. Yes. Unbelievable.
[00:15:53] Lucy: Well, let's talk a little bit. about the book itself. So you start with spices and spice mixtures and sauces and marinades, and then you move into the kind of different sections of dishes interspersed with essays.
[00:16:09] Did you do a lot of back and forth on the structure of the book?
[00:16:13] Marie: That was the hardest thing to pin down.
[00:16:14] Lucy: Really?
[00:16:15] Marie: Oh my god, that was, and actually it's so perfect now, but I'm really glad you feel like that. That's a great place to be. Because I think I've done it slightly differently. I think a lot of the time people end up putting things like spice mixes and marinades kind of at the end of the book but I felt very passionate about it going at the beginning because for me it's the underpinning.
[00:16:38] Lucy: Yeah, and it can feel like an afterthought.
[00:16:40] Marie: Exactly,
[00:16:41] and for me it's absolutely where you start, not where you finish.
[00:16:44] Yeah.
[00:16:44] So it felt really vital, even if it's a case of you're adding, like, pickles or something at the end of a dish, you still need to have that to know that that's going to finish the dish off.
[00:16:53] Lucy: Yeah, yeah, so true.
[00:16:55] Marie: Yeah, so it felt really important to have that. And then it's bookended with what I then deem as the end, which actually probably is, for most people, the Celebrations or when they're getting together, you start with a drink. But also a lot of the time, like you get to the end of a meal or whatever, and then you might have a little something.
[00:17:13] So it felt, it feels like it's been bookended really perfectly. And then you sort of.
[00:17:19] Lucy: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I can see that now.
[00:17:22] Marie: I'd like to flip it. Yeah.
[00:17:23] Lucy: But that's, I think that's so true because I was thinking about, I think there was another book I was thinking about recently, I think it might have been Tim Anderson's Ramen book, which is obviously a very different book, but he basically, the whole, like, almost first half of the book is like the components of the ramen, like you don't get to a finished dish until like much, much later.
[00:17:42] And I was like, that's so interesting because I feel like There might be pressure. I mean, I don't know. I've never worked with a publisher on a recipe book, but I can imagine that there might be pressure for there to be a recipe, a recipe sooner. Yeah. And actually like, is that the fact that the sources and the flavorings and the kind of backbone of it are often at the end, that feels like quite colonial.
[00:18:05] And like, actually, I don't have any evidence for that. That's pure vibes.
[00:18:09] Marie: That is in, that is actually really interesting point.
[00:18:12] Lucy: It's like, we, we take these for granted. outside of, you know, the main body of what we're interested in. I don't know.
[00:18:19] Marie: No, I get, I get that because when we think about classical cooking, for example, a lot of people, when I'm, A couple of times I've started to do jobs and I'm very much almost exec chef role-ing.
[00:18:31] I can't do that properly. I cannot just walk away. I have to be involved. I'm just not there. I'm just not there yet. And I just think if, if more people had an understanding of Caribbean cooking, maybe I'll be a bit cool about it. And it's not so difficult. Sure, right,
[00:18:45] Lucy: right. That's no, but that's totally understandable.
[00:18:46] Marie: Yeah. And you do sort of see, and this is no shade on anyone at all. I think it is, if you're classically trained. And most of us, even when you're not, we think about that kind of approach.
[00:18:57] Lucy: Just the language.
[00:18:58] Marie: Exactly. That's kind of what we're sold as how we're meant to cook. But with a lot of, I mean, loads of the Global South and also just I mean, the vast, basically, a lot of people from global ethnic majority communities, I much prefer that phrase.
[00:19:14] Um, you will see that we will start, like, with a spice mix, and whether that's you're marinating something, or you're cooking the spices off, or you're toasting, that is, we start with all of those flavours, rather than it being kind of a sofrito, whatever, uh, is it a sofrito? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I had a mind blank then.
[00:19:34] We start with that flavoring and that profile and then we embed it in what's going to then come later. And a lot of time we layer that in and I notice sometimes I'm working with people they won't necessarily kind of give all of that, that, the process the same treatment because I think it's all a bit, it's not that they don't take time or understand that concept, but it's definitely approached differently.
[00:19:58] Lucy: That's really interesting and I just think that has so much potential to completely alter the sense of a dish, right? The flavor profile, like the, yeah, the like under flavors that are so key to how it tastes.
[00:20:10] Marie: Massively.
[00:20:11] And also a lot of our, even if it's something quite simple, so I still, much prefer, even if it's a lot of things, to cook things by hand.
[00:20:19] Sorry, chop things by hand, rather than blend. Occasionally some things, fine, you can with onions and things, but I find with something like celery, if you don't chop it by hand, it becomes quite fibrous, unless you cook it down for a long time. Those kind of things that really do impact how a curry particularly will kind of finish, because it's mouthfeel, it's not just the flavour.
[00:20:43] And that's something I realised this week. When working with us, I realised it's not just the flavours, it is very much that mouthfeel. Do you get that kind of roundedness, that smoothness on your tongue and around the mouth? Or does it kind of feel as if there's like weird textures going on that don't belong?
[00:20:59] And there's a bit of that.
[00:21:00] Lucy: You're so right. Yeah, that is, I don't think that's given enough space, is it? Like the idea of how it feels. But it is so crucial.
[00:21:07] Marie: It
[00:21:07] is. And that's why I think we just more respect, I suppose it probably is, but just, we need to kind of involve and embed ourselves in other cultures cuisines and really understand that there's, in those processes, there's a lot of work and detail and understanding that's maybe not respected in the same ways.
[00:21:26] You know, with classical training, which we know.
[00:21:28] Lucy: God, I mean, absolutely. I think it's kind of deconstructing that as like key to a more equitable food world. But we're such a long way off it. I guess this connects to what we were talking about in the sense that, like, obviously, you know, we're talking about the difference between classical French cooking and how you as a Caribbean, well, as a Jamaican British cook who cooks Caribbean food might approach starting a recipe.
[00:21:59] But I think that's extra interesting in the context of, I mean, you, so you quote, is it Candice? I'm sorry, I don't know how to pronounce her surname. I don't know how to pronounce her surname either. Well, we'll go with one of those. I, I in
[00:22:10] my head always say Goucher. Goucher, fine.
[00:22:12] We'll go with that. So, and you're talking about how Caribbean food is the real, first real global cuisine and the quote from Candice Goucher is, with the distinct cultures, people and languages of four continents.
[00:22:24] Which is kind of Mind blowing to hear it put into words so succinctly, like that, the breadth of it.
[00:22:30] Marie: I know, I was like, there's no way I'm going to do any better than that, so just Just put it in. Let's just quote.
[00:22:35] I was
[00:22:35] like, can we make this
[00:22:35] happen, please? Exactly.
[00:22:39] Um And I'll thank my old business partner, Joe, for getting me onto that book, thank you.
[00:22:42] Credit where credit's due.
[00:22:42] Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I guess that makes the idea of it being unusual to people as an approach so wild, doesn't it? Because it's got so many Elements in it already that should be familiar to people and yet there's this lack of understanding.
[00:22:59] Marie: There's a fear I feel and this is, this is actually a thing I do talk about and I have started saying more recently when doing, I don't know, demos, talks, whatever, but saying that you will know Caribbean food in some capacity, you would have seen it before.
[00:23:13] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's really become quite important to share because the fact that people really do like to say, Oh, I've just, I don't really understand it. I don't know it. I mean.
[00:23:26] Lucy: It's a get out of jail free card, isn't it?
[00:23:28] Marie: It is. It's basically a way to maintain a level of laziness.
[00:23:31] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:23:31] Marie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:23:33] But if you have any care, even any remote interest, you will understand it in some way. Yeah. You would have experienced it in some form. Yes, it might look different, but you will understand it in some way. And I think, one, yes, there's a bit of laziness. Two, I think there's fear. And three, people just assume it's all going to be overwhelmingly spicy.
[00:23:56] Mmm. And actually, as As a Caribbean person, sometimes it does, I mean I occasionally do get frustrated even when like you're being told other Caribbeans like it has to be hot. There are loads of Caribbeans that don't like it hot. And so I think it's a choice. Like with anything. Some people love it hot, some people don't love it hot.
[00:24:15] It's a choice. And that's why you have hot pepper sauce, because then you can add it as much or as little as you like. Exactly. Exactly. Like I, I, I mean, I didn't think my tolerance for spice was that high. I've realized it actually probably is much higher than a lot of people. Because I'll taste things, but that's not spicy at all.
[00:24:33] And then they taste it and they're like
[00:24:39] So obviously, okay, I've got to start realising that I can handle some spice.
[00:24:44] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Marie: But even with that, I like to taste the other flavours that are in there, because it's often so beautifully layered and complex and there's more in there. So if I can't taste any of that, what's the point?
[00:24:55] Lucy: It's also not just about heat, is it?
[00:24:56] I mean the idea of like, I mean just the scotch bonnet alone, like the scotch bonnet, I just think the scotch bonnet has the most incredible flavour.
[00:25:02] Marie: I know.
[00:25:03] Lucy: Like I actually, this is the whitest thing I've ever said so I apologise, but I actually wish that scotch bonnets had less heat or you could get them with less heat so I could enjoy the flavour more because I love to put loads in and then I'm like, no I've done it again, I really regret that.
[00:25:16] But I just think the flavour is incredible and that like it's used so beautifully.
[00:25:20] Marie: It's quite sweet, it's quite sweet chilli, yeah, yeah, those notes come through. Yeah,
[00:25:25] Lucy: really stunning flavour.
[00:25:26] Marie: You know a good way, you just pierce it and put it in.
[00:25:28] Lucy: Yeah, you see, so I have a story about doing that. Did it explode?
[00:25:31] In a pea soup and it disintegrated into the sea. It was when I worked in a cafe and I, uh, I came to fish the scotch bonnet out and was like, Something terrible has happened.
[00:25:41] Marie: Okay, okay, you piss it and you keep an eye because otherwise you're going to absolutely ruin people.
[00:25:46] Lucy: You don't believe it on the heat.
[00:25:48] All morning. And yeah, so someone came and ordered the soup at lunch time and I was like, I have to tell you that there, an error was made. Let me give you a taste of it. And she tasted it and she was like, absolutely not.
[00:26:03] So, yeah, I, I think that's a great way of doing it if you're not an idiot. Must fish it out. Maybe you could put it in a little bag as opposed to a little teabag. Oh, no. Scotch bonnet teabag, that's what we need. I've got many. With all the seeds and everything. Oh, my God, it was so hot.
[00:26:22] Marie: I know. When people are like, you put the seeds.
[00:26:24] Never, never do I put the seeds. I mean, I'm sure some people do, but I have. I like to live my life in a relative state of comfort.
[00:26:36] Lucy: Oh god, okay. Um, well I also, with that, with that quote from Candice Goucher that I read you, you know, kind of talking about the idea of Caribbean food being this incredible like encompassing of so many things. Um, what, how do you feel about a sense of place? Because obviously your kind of first encounter with Jamaican food and then by extension food from the rest of the Caribbean came first through your parents, but then also like being a Londoner you're surrounded by different food cultures all the time.
[00:27:08] So how important is place in the food that you cook?
[00:27:12] Marie: Oh, I feel like you can really tell that one, I'm from London in that way. I'm British Caribbean for sure. I, well, I mean, maybe people can't, I'm, you feel like it's obvious. I think it's obvious, but then equally I have occasionally got like the best feedback ever from anyone is when people go, that tastes like how my grandma used to make it.
[00:27:31] I literally hold my hand up and I'm like, I could, life, life, I can retire now. Exactly. I've reached the pinnacle. So. There's definitely probably an element of where you can see those influences. But I think that probably comes when I'm doing not like necessarily less traditional, because someone did say that they thought my recipes were quite traditional, but I, I suppose I've been relatively true to how you get them, but maybe sometimes the way I'll get there might be a little bit more of myself.
[00:28:01] I suppose that's where the sense of place probably comes in and is important. Because I never want anyone to think that I'm trying to be Caribbean in the sense of like, I grew up there. It's always going to be slightly different, what we, what we get access to, the freshness, the availability, that's going, it's always going to be different.
[00:28:20] We're never going to have that direct, um, line we have, we're, we're, uh, in London we're so lucky, but equally it's never going to be like picked off a tree and then that kind of freshness or perfectly ripe or the same, like the plantings in the Caribbean are just like another level because they're so small because they're basically just, they're most of them just organic.
[00:28:43] They're just growing, yeah, on people's farms and stuff. They're not, I mean, not all of them, I'm sure, but equally they're so, they're a lot smaller. That's how you can tell normally because they're not huge and they are Just like they're sweet, but not in like a sick. They're just so perfect.
[00:29:01] Lucy: Yeah
[00:29:02] Marie: I mean obviously I still love planting here But I find now that you've really you used to be able to actually buy a ripe plant in it was yellow But it was right.
[00:29:09] Lucy: Yeah,
[00:29:09] Marie: whereas now you'll buy yellow plant in and then it's sort of not ripe and you've got to leave it for a certain amount of time to actually ripen, you rarely can buy one straight off and just use it. Right. Yeah, whereas you used to be able to get them and they'd be like perfect. I think that's
[00:29:24] Lucy: funny.
[00:29:25] I wonder what's changed.
[00:29:26] Marie: I just think that's probably representative of our food systems in general. We're just kind of forcing everyone.
[00:29:30] Lucy: Everything's picked so early and then transported so far and so long. Exactly.
[00:29:36] Marie: So we're never going to have that in that kind of sense. But for me, I do think it's really important.
[00:29:43] That people recognize that I, I'm not being strictly authentic in the, I'm being myself, I'm doing my interpretations. It doesn't mean that I'm not being respectful, I'm 100 percent doing that, but I'm doing food in the way that I like to eat it. So, I suppose maybe the, the, where it arrives is, tastes very similarly, but what I kind of put in might be.
[00:30:03] Ever so slightly different. Probably not hugely, but little parts that are reflective of kind of the way I like to eat and why I like to put in things.
[00:30:11] Lucy: Such like a prickly notion, authenticity, isn't it? I mean, like, there's something you can talk about for days, but yeah. I think it has the potential to be quite restrictive to the people that it shouldn't, it should allow freedom to.
[00:30:21] Marie: Exactly, I suppose then, I definitely, probably felt quite passionate about things being inverted commas authentic earlier days but i think that comes from actually i just want people to respect the cuisine and not try and change it so that it's so far removed from what it was that then there's no context of where it came from or how it came to be you know what i mean
[00:30:44] Lucy: i think that's totally fair because when it's something that As we've said, people maybe don't have the cultural understanding to appreciate already and it's, I guess, portrayals of it are dominated by certain things made by certain people.
[00:30:57] Yeah, you do want there to be an understanding for the origin, right? It's about that rather than like it being correct.
[00:31:03] Marie: A hundred percent. It's just a respect and I think that's the real big difference of when you see that there are chefs that maybe haven't grown up in a particular culture or they're not from that culture, but they've dedicated like a lot of their time, energy, resources to really understanding the details and very much then talking about those and actually centering the place rather than themselves.
[00:31:32] Yeah, it's a good, that's, yeah, that's true. I think that's the big difference. of when you kind of look at a chef and you're like, oh okay, they have such a deep respect and understanding as to where this comes from that all they're actually doing now is trying to get people to understand that and then to to kind of place themselves within that culture or like to get it within that culture to understand it to immerse themselves.
[00:31:54] Lucy: Yeah, yeah, it's a difficult line isn't it to tread because I guess our world is so you. It's so, it revolves around the personal brand. So like it's really difficult to find that balance. But I think you're right, there are people that do that very well. I would agree with that for sure. And some
[00:32:09] Marie: that do it terribly.
[00:32:10] Lucy: And some that do it really badly. Entirely centre themselves. No shade, no shade. No names named. Look
[00:32:19] Marie: guys, just, just Be respectful. Yeah,
[00:32:26] Lucy: yeah. God, it's not hard is it? Anyway, I've said this a few times in conversations with people and I'm now wondering whether it's just I have a lazy attitude towards recipe books but I think there can be a perception in my head of recipe books being quite cozy.
[00:32:42] There's quite like a softness to them and maybe that's because they're often Sort of coded as feminine, um, they're of the home. And, yeah, so I wanted to ask you about something that is very apparent in your book, which is how political the book is. Like, what do you think is the potential within the book?
[00:33:02] Recipe writing for political thought or even political activism, really, I think.
[00:33:07] Marie: I mean, I, I think on a personal level, they, they're just deeply intertwined.
[00:33:13] Lucy: Yeah, I guess, how could they, could they not be when you talk about the things that you do? No, no, and
[00:33:16] Marie: I think that's probably what, where there has been an element of where people have previously maybe not felt comfortable or not felt free to kind of have, you know, Those conversations within, within the work, that I feel, gosh, touch it, um, where, whereas I feel very grateful that I've been able to, um, it shouldn't be a case of having to be like, oh yes, I can talk about what I want to talk about, but let's be honest, we're not always given, um, the freedoms to have those, those conversations and to write so openly and so freely.
[00:33:55] Um, I think, um, Interesting. I think we were talking before, just like we started, but just how we're kind of, or maybe when you're talking about Rory in terms of history, kind of like the way in which what it's reflective of what's going on at the time as well. We are in a deeply political time. You can try and deny it if you want, but it's all around us.
[00:34:24] Exactly. Like it's all around us. It's imploding on itself, and I think a lot of what I'm discussing in the book is actually very of the time, it's, yes fine I'm talking about things, historical things that happened many many years ago, hundreds of years ago, but yet still those questions and queries and discussions are kind of happening today, just in different places, and actually in some ways still in the Caribbean, so I can't, I don't know if maybe food ever has the time or place of being less political, I kind of think it can't be.
[00:35:04] And I think we're also in a time of where we have an abundance of food but so much food scarcity. Yeah. Where there's a, there's a real disconnect with how our food is made. Yeah. With what we eat. Our bodies connect with nutrients, quality, and this is all political. Yeah. So I, I, I, I feel as if there's never, never a time where food and politics do not intersect.
[00:35:35] So I felt it was, it would almost be slightly remiss for me not to talk about it.
[00:35:39] Lucy: What
[00:35:41] Marie: I hope is. is being received is that I'm talking about it, but I'm also trying to talk about ways in which to create change. And, uh, also very much being quite vocal about centering the opinions of those who need to be heard to help create change rather than it just being, and that it's totally fine, there is space for that, but rather than it being centered around just kind of expressing myself and then not necessarily being.
[00:36:15] Okay, how do we, how do we get to this next stage?
[00:36:18] Lucy: Mm hmm,
[00:36:19] Marie: but to answer the question, they're always, there's always crossover. I don't think they could not be.
[00:36:25] Lucy: Yeah, I guess maybe when there isn't crossover, that's a deliberate act of censorship. Maybe censorship is a strong word, but
[00:36:33] Marie: yeah. I think cookbooks often are like, people want, I think people use them as an escape.
[00:36:39] Lucy: Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of weird, isn't it?
[00:36:42] Marie: When you think about it. I mean, I definitely, I definitely, I suppose that's me in baking. But the inclusion of the essays was really actually vital for me. I've always been drawn to writing, and I felt it was vital, but equally, if I'm writing a recipe book, I also need to know it needs to be functional.
[00:37:02] And I need to know that people can read the recipes and do that. There will be some people that will absolutely read the book in its entirety, and there will be some people that might never even read one of the essays. Yeah. And I suppose what the Serves to do is it it works actually
[00:37:21] Lucy: without
[00:37:21] Marie: the essays.
[00:37:22] I think
[00:37:23] Lucy: I think you'll lose
[00:37:23] Marie: something and it's Read the essays people, read the essays, but um, I think if you didn't you would still garner quite a lot of information, a, a kind of basic understanding of some of the history and also get. a sense of me and my family. Yeah. You can probably see it, I mean I have a very small following on social media and I love it and maybe it'll grow, who knows, but equally I feel as if I have such lovely community on there that's been fostered very organically and slowly nurtured and I love it.
[00:38:02] And I think more recently you can really see that I've, not necessarily come into myself, but I've been more, uh, I felt safer to be able to be myself. And maybe that's just also getting a bit older. Where I'm just a bit like, I'm going to have these conversations because life's too short.
[00:38:17] Lucy: And
[00:38:17] Marie: maybe it's also just a combination of what's happened in my life.
[00:38:20] And I'm really just like, you absolutely just have to grab on with these things.
[00:38:25] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:38:25] Marie: And
[00:38:26] Lucy: that's interesting, isn't it? Because I think a lot of, you know, There's a lot of examples within books being published where people's main encounter with that writer is through social media.
[00:38:39] Marie: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Lucy: Whereas I guess having grown a following much more organically and not really through social media, their encounter is, with you, is often literally through your food.
[00:38:49] Yes. Which is very different, right? Yeah,
[00:38:52] Marie: and I think my food has always been, the events and things are always centered very joyful, and so I do think people won't necessarily be fully surprised, but I think you've started to see pockets of the fact that there's more, there's more going on, there's more to say, there's more going on, that the food really is a chance, which is what I talk about, is for us to come on in and then let's have those conversations and do it in a way where it's not a surprise.
[00:39:22] Though sometimes it's necessary to absolutely make your voice heard. And we all, we all have different times and different places for where the different parts of ourselves are necessary. Um, but I suppose I've sort of been like, dropping the little nuggets of, of like, the fact that there's more that I want to have, that I want to talk about.
[00:39:42] Yeah. But I also just think that social media is such a damaging place. It's useful, it's very useful, but equally it should not be all that we're spending our time on doing. Yeah. So, I very much now treat it as a chance to kind of give you the bits, the bits, the like little nuggets, and then, okay, let's get off here, let's meet in real life, let's have conversations, let's Let's read the book, let's, I'm going to start a newsletter.
[00:40:13] All of those things that actually can start to feel more community because that, that is, that is at the center of my work. Yes, food. I love cooking. I love sharing through food, but community is actually absolutely at the heart of why I'm doing this and why I wanted to get into cooking in the first place.
[00:40:32] And now I get to write and talk about it and then hopefully continue doing other bits and pieces that really center. Community activism.
[00:40:41] Lucy: Almost 90 recipes in the book. Yes! This is asking you to pick a favourite child of your 90 children, but are there any, are there any dishes in the book, or even like, spices or sauces, anything that you really want people to cook?
[00:40:55] The custard apple sorbet. Oh my god, I was looking at that recipe on the way here. I was like, I must get some custard apples. It's so
[00:41:02] Marie: good. I've been talking a lot about slowing down and trying to be more proactive about being less, Uh, when it comes to food, or being like, this has to be done immediately, I've got to, I can only do food or cook things that I can do speedily.
[00:41:18] I'm really trying to slow down and that's a prime example, the fact that you kind of have to take time, you've got to, you've got to kind of take, take all the flesh off around the seeds.
[00:41:29] Lucy: Yeah, do your six custard apples. Exactly. You're not,
[00:41:31] Marie: you know, you don't yield loads, but I think what that starts to do is very much connect us back to food and food systems and the fact that you know that that season isn't very long and it's quite short, so enjoy it while it's here.
[00:41:45] Enjoy it. Have it. Enjoy it. Various guises. I mean there's many things that can kind of do it but food is very good at kind of transporting you specifically to kind of time and place and when you are Attempting because we can't always do it. But when you're attempting to kind of try and eat seasonally Hmm, I feel as if it it's so it's really good Good at encapsulating that kind of moment all these moments that you've experienced over the years that don't happen that often I think then that everything becomes a bit more precious
[00:42:16] Lucy: Yeah, so that's yeah, there's
[00:42:18] Marie: a real thing.
[00:42:18] I'm trying to be proactive about of like, okay Okay, what can I do to kind of bring slowness into the day? Or a task and because someone was asking me about that in terms of with children as well. It's like sometimes I just prep things the night before. Not loads, but like, I'd be like, okay, I know that we want to have this particular thing tomorrow, so maybe I'll just make the sauce tonight.
[00:42:39] You do small components, or if I'm doing, I won't necessarily do batch cooking. I've, I've forever tried to be that person. It's just not me.
[00:42:45] Lucy: Yeah, I know, same.
[00:42:48] Marie: But I will maybe get a few bits and pieces done, like, if I want to know that we've got quick salads or dressings. Yeah,
[00:42:53] Lucy: it's just thinking ahead a little bit as far as you can.
[00:42:55] Yeah, bits
[00:42:56] Marie: of planning and stuff. But
[00:42:57] Lucy: that's so hard, isn't it? I mean, like, especially, I mean, I feel like that's a whole conversation in itself, like, being a person whose work is in food and then having a, having to eat as a person and having a family.
[00:43:09] Marie: Sometimes I'm so bad at it. Sometimes I'm just like, yeah.
[00:43:12] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:43:13] Marie: Goujons till the day end of time.
[00:43:14] Lucy: Yeah, but like, it's the best one's holiday, isn't it? You don't want to be, after you've cooked for 600 people accidentally the night before, you don't want to be slaving over the custard apples. No, that's
[00:43:24] Marie: why
[00:43:24] Lucy: tonight it's egg and
[00:43:25] Marie: chips. Yeah, delicious. Yeah, yeah. But cut, the custard apple sorbet for sure is definitely up there.
[00:43:34] Lucy: And then the tamarind rum punch. That's another one. I was going to say, when you mentioned the drinks earlier, the drinks section is so good. Yes! Oh my god. Yeah, the tamarind, what is it? Tamarind? I think it's sparkler. Sparkler. Yeah, that's it. That sounds great. And I imagine, like, what, you've got that nice sourness
[00:43:51] Marie: from So when I was testing, I was trying to get the balance right with lime, and then in the end I was like, it does not need the lime.
[00:43:56] The lime actually threw it off really weirdly. Mmm. Just straight, yeah, the tamarind, the ginger syrup, yeah.
[00:44:04] Lucy: Gorgeous. Yeah, okay. Alright, they're on my list. Yes! This is really me just mining you for a menu. And
[00:44:10] Marie: then the, do you know what the curry I, the two curries I cook the most are the Colombo and the tomato and squash one.
[00:44:18] Lucy: Okay.
[00:44:19] Marie: That is an un, a secret winner. And um, I've very lightly started things for the next, the next book. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there's gonna be more, like, pickley goodness and, yeah, some, yeah, good ideas.
[00:44:37] Lucy: Because this is, like, a book centric episode. Yeah. Give me a sense of what you're, what are you cooking from, what are you reading at the moment?
[00:44:44] What am I reading?
[00:44:45] Marie: Do you know what? I'm reading a lot of black literature. I've got many books on the go. That's my thing at the moment. Start one, don't finish. Yep, got it. After getting really good at being like, boom, I'm reading, I just read it all in like a week or something. I've become obsessed with Caleb Azuma Nelson.
[00:45:03] Oh
[00:45:04] Lucy: yes! I've read his first book, but not his newest one, so I'm really excited to read that. Yeah, so I'm the same, and I've
[00:45:09] Marie: started it. And then also Kevin Morosky's, um, Black Women Always.
[00:45:14] Lucy: Oh, I haven't read that. It's like
[00:45:15] Marie: essays and just, oh, just from the introduction I was just hooked. I was in. And then I'm looking forward to Candice Brathwaite.
[00:45:25] Her new book out in September.
[00:45:27] Lucy: Is that nonfiction?
[00:45:28] Marie: Yeah, it's all about manifesting. Oh, okay. Interesting. I'm curious about that one. So I pre ordered that. Great. Uh, I basically banned myself from reading any cookbooks for a long time. I just got so nervous that then I'd be influenced or take on parts of the other people's books that I was just like, just can't look at any of them.
[00:45:53] Yeah, need the pure thoughts. Yes, exactly. So actually, I want to go back and go and properly read. So I did, I did eventually start reading a little bit of, um, Melissa Thompson's Motherland, which I love. Bits I have read, I've absolutely loved, but now I can actually go back and properly read it from cover to cover, which I'm excited about.
[00:46:15] I think I like finding little pockets of food writing rather than big piece. I think we get, we get to, we get more of who the people are without other influences. Obviously behind people have editors. That's interesting.
[00:46:31] Lucy: Yeah, like what
[00:46:32] Marie: people put on social media. If not, obviously not everyone, but certain people, the way they write, I think I'm really drawn to that.
[00:46:39] I'm that foodie person that probably would never classify themselves as a foodie. Who doesn't read it. all the food magazines or publications. I dip in and out.
[00:46:53] Lucy: But it's interesting, isn't it? Because like it's become so much about consumption of that as well. When actually like, you know, it's like the kind of the thing about like food is visual visual culture when it's not really visual culture.
[00:47:06] Marie: I mean, I suppose the pure, the purest way of talking about it is because it, yeah, I suppose it's like we see it and we're drawn in by it. That is, but it is, It's, it's, I think it's different, it's not, there's like, it kind of overlaps in different ways. Yeah. Especially when it comes to the writing.
[00:47:20] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:47:22] Marie: Yeah, yeah. I think the food writing actually can be so much more evocative, even without seeing anything.
[00:47:27] Lucy: Agrees. Yeah, yeah. Um,
[00:47:29] Marie: but I find actually when it comes to being influenced with food, I'm, I'm really drawn to, again, writing in, in, in, in, any capacity. An art, I think a lot of the time like when I go to exhibitions and things that's often when I'm like, oh, ideas come to me.
[00:47:48] Lucy: Um,
[00:47:51] Marie: a dance. Yeah. My dance fears.
[00:47:55] Lucy: God, okay. So I find that's like scratches the itch. Yeah, I think, yeah, exactly. I
[00:48:00] Marie: think. I mean, I can be found late at night, like, we're supposed to be testing out my mackerel or prepping or something. Just having a little boogie. Oh yeah. It gets me in the zone. So I find, yeah, I'm, I don't think I'm strictly influenced by one thing or another.
[00:48:16] It depends on my mood and what takes me, but that's often, yeah, ways of doing it.
[00:48:21] Lucy: I think it's nice to take food out of its silo, though it is often seen as a bit separate. And the fact that it can interact with so many different interests and pieces of types of culture that That's giving it its true kind of potential, I guess.
[00:48:36] Yeah, exactly. Yeah Um, okay one last thing before we finish so At the end of the book, you write this really beautiful essay. Oh, we dream. Um, yeah. I
[00:48:46] Marie: can't read that without crying. Yeah, I
[00:48:48] Lucy: bet. I was reading it on the
[00:48:49] Marie: train and I was like
[00:48:53] That is a laugh, not a cry.
[00:48:56] Lucy: Yeah, yeah. No one will believe it. And at the end, you write about, uh, your dream, which was to write a book. And the book's Real now. It is real. How does that feel?
[00:49:11] Marie: Yeah, I it's it's real It's a book. It's real. Does it still feel
[00:49:16] Lucy: dreamlike?
[00:49:17] Marie: Always. Yeah, I think Things like signing people's books people wanted me to sign books.
[00:49:24] I had someone wanting to take a photo of me I was like, what is this and It doesn't get me excited in terms of being known because I if I could do this job I and have absolute anonymity. 100 percent would.
[00:49:38] Lucy: It's kind of a shame that's not really an option. I know. Real detriment.
[00:49:45] Marie: Be like, okay, you're known for your work, but, like, I don't suddenly think people are going to be stopping on the street.
[00:49:50] I have zero desire for that and I don't think that's going to happen. But just the fact that people are They're not taken by something I've written, or they feel, they see themselves in something that I've discussed. Or they feel as if I'm sort of making them feel like they can do it. All of those things, I take none of it for granted.
[00:50:13] It's very, very surreal. I don't think I'll probably get used to it. Ever, or for a while. The fact that it's, you know, it's either going to be in the world very soon for most people, but it is in the world in some capacity. is a very, very odd notion. And I'm just very thankful that people seem to be responding to it in the way that I sort of hoped.
[00:50:51] Lucy: Lekker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy Dearlove. Thanks to Marie Mitchell for being part of this episode. Kin is out now. And you can find the previous episode that I made with Marie five years ago, also on the Lekker feed. I will link to it in the show notes because it's quite far back. Um, but if you want to listen to that as well, I'd love that.
[00:51:13] Music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions. Before I go, a reminder that you can sign up as a paid subscriber to support Lekker on Apple Podcasts, Patreon, and now also on Substack. Links are in the show notes, as ever. And any paid subscribers who are listening here, thank you so much. As always, your support is so much appreciated.
[00:51:33] Thanks for listening.