Sit Slurp Leave with Tim Anderson
Photo: Laura Edwards
Welcome back to the Lecker Book Club. Every month I’ll pick a newly released food related book and talk to the author about the process of writing it. I’ll also be writing about it on Substack and Patreon. Join me there as well!
This month: Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson.
Ramen has ended up as a cornerstone of Tim Anderson’s life. As he writes in the book, it was originally his love of ramen - as well as Japanese food more broadly - that took him to live in Japan, which steered the course of his future in many ways, including meeting his wife. Avid food TV watchers in the UK may also remember that ramen was at the heart of his Masterchef story; when he won the series in 20211, ramen was his winning main course in the final. He previously ran a ramen restaurant in Brixton, Nanban, which opened in 2015 and closed in 2021. But although he’s got five cookbooks already to his name, he’s never written a book entirely about ramen….until now.
Ramen Forever is out now, published by Hardie Grant. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
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Find the transcript after the embedded player.
Trancript: Sit Slurp Leave with Tim Anderson
Please note the transcript is auto-generated by Descript and may contain unintended errors.
[00:00:00] Lucy: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. This month on the Lecker Club, Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson. Ramen has ended up as a kind of cornerstone of Tim Anderson's life. As he writes in the book Ramen Forever, it was originally his love of ramen that took him to live in Japan, which steered the course of his future in many ways.
Including that he met his wife there. Avid food TV watchers in the UK may also remember that ramen was at the heart of his MasterChef story when Tim won the series in 2011. Ramen was his winning main course in the final. He also previously ran a ramen restaurant in Brixton which was called Nanban, opening in 2015 and it closed in 2021.
But, although he's now got five cookbooks already to his name, he's never written a book entirely about ramen before. Until now.
[00:01:01] Tim: There's a Mickey Mantle quote I read recently where I think he said something like, it's amazing to realize how little you know about the game you've been playing your whole life.
Something like that. And I really felt that writing the ramen book.
[00:01:18] Lucy: I found this such an interesting conversation, not just about ramen, but also about the nature of cookbook writing and power dynamics within publishing. Tim spoke about his work and his approach to it with an honesty that. I think is really generous, and I feel like I really got an insight in what it takes to write recipes for a living in the way that he does.
Including that feeling that you might not have got something completely right when it goes off to print, or that someone else might have been better placed to write something that you agreed to. I'm really grateful to Tim for this, because it made what I knew would be an interesting conversation anyway even more enjoyable, and I hope that you get a lot out of it too.
And if nothing else, You'll be tempted to make that leftover Nando's ramen. I began by asking Tim about something that he opens ramen forever with. What ramen is, but also what it isn't.
[00:02:16] Tim: Yeah, it's kind of a big question. I mean, on the one hand, the answer is very simple. Because ramen is like, when you boil it down, no pun intended, it becomes a very simple thing, and that is... alkaline wheat noodles in broth. I used to also sort of add a, a caveat to that, which is that it had to be a meat broth, just cause that's what it's sort of always traditionally has been.
And that's what sets it apart, especially from other kinds of traditional Japanese noodle soups. One of the things anyway, but you know, nowadays it's all broths and, and vegetarian or vegan versions as well. So I don't think that's part of it, but that is sort of one of the. Historically defining features of it, but it's the alkaline wheat noodles, the wheat noodles that have Kansui potassium carbonate and sodium carbonate in them that really makes ramen ramen and distinct from other kinds of noodles.
And this is yeah. Ramen, the word as it's used in, uh, Britain and I think English speaking countries, generally people take it to mean sort of any. Sort of noodle soup. I think any kind of Asian noodle soup, which isn't true, obviously Ramen is a particular kind of noodle soup from a particular place and other kinds of noodle soups are other kind of particular noodle soups So you see kind of absurd things in shops and on the high street chains like Ramen Udon or Laksa Ramen and it's like Ramen Udon is like saying spaghetti gnocchi or, you know, it just makes absolutely no sense if you know what these words mean.
If I have one thing that I want people to sort of take away from the book, it is actually just that. It's that ramen is ramen and ramen has to have alkaline salts in it, kansui, or it isn't ramen. And for me with ramen, There is something special and unique about the texture that you get in the noodles that does come from Kansui.
So, it's not just a matter of me being pedantic. It is like sort of, you know, ramen for me and a lot of people is a special thing and that's what makes it special. That's one of the things that makes it special. Now, having said that, there are other types of noodles in Chinese traditions that do use Kansui and are basically the same dish.
But I think you also have to respect those dishes and not call them ramen, even though they sort of technically fit the definition like wonton noodle soup. Cause I don't know enough about Chinese food culture to come up with a lot of examples, but wonton noodle soup is one that I know uses alkaline wheat noodles in a meat broth.
You could say, oh, it's ramen, but really I think when you do that, you're also sort of showing your hand to somebody who's not that familiar with that particular dish, and you would never sort of conflate the two if you did know the difference. But, you know, also, this definition is a little bit sort of unsatisfying because Ramen has other elements beyond the noodles and the broth, and that's the toppings, the oils, um, and the tare, the seasoning.
And all these things are important in sort of determining what is ramen and, and, um, complicating it. And all these things have to be taken into consideration when you discuss sort of regional variations and, Sort of new, modern variations, which are also like, have to be understood as, as part of the definition of ramen.
It's not just wheat noodles in broth or alkaline wheat noodles in broth. It is all of the variations that you get from that starting point as well. So it's simple, but it's also complicated, basically.
[00:05:55] Lucy: Yeah. It's a big question to start with. Yeah. Sorry. Well, thank you for that. That's very interesting. And from what I understand, and from what you write in the book.
Ramen is a big part of your life, it's a big part of your kind of personal, I guess, like, story around food. How is it important to you? Can you remember the first time you ate it?
[00:06:12] Tim: I can't really remember the first time I ate it because I think for, like, a lot of people, the first time I ate it was, would have been in its instant form.
Growing up, we always had packets of Maruchan or Sapporo Ichiban in the cupboard. They were just sort of, like, part of the fabric of Midwestern American food, like, Everybody I knew ate instant ramen. They cost maybe 10 cents a pack back then, like they were incredibly cheap. They're one of the first things you learn to cook when you can't cook like as a teenager.
So that would have been my first basic introduction to ramen. And also I want to say like, there may be people thinking, oh, that's not really ramen, but I think it is. I think you can't dismiss instant ramen. It's like a huge part of the ramen culture as well. And a huge part of what sort of made it popular around the world.
Like Introducing people to the dish in that format and getting them on board with the whole concept of, like, long noodles in broth, like, that's important. So that would have been the first time when I grew up eating those. Uh, and then when I went to college, uh, I went to college in Los Angeles and that was partly because I was already interested in Japanese food and I knew that there was a lot more to learn about there.
Because of the Japanese diaspora population, and it's just much more established and diverse. So, I started eating ramen in shops like in Little Tokyo in LA, um, and on Sawtelle Boulevard, um, stuff like that. And it didn't really, like, hit me. Like, I had a lot of sort of what I would now, I guess, I might sort of realize were just sort of...
This sounds mean, but they were just sort of like nothing special kinds of bowls, so they didn't really have much of an impact on me. But then... There was a night where I was out in Little Tokyo with a group of friends and there were sort of too many of us We hadn't booked anywhere to eat. We couldn't get anywhere and there was this restaurant that we finally stumbled across called Daikoku Yacht Which is still there and very popular now.
We would never have been able to get in there now But they took us all in there were like seven of us. It was ridiculous. We sat at the counter and And it was my first bowl of tonkotsu ramen, and I'd never had anything like it before. It was, you know, most of the ramen I'd had had like a kind of a thinner broth, a shio or a shoyu kind of old school Tokyo style broth.
And this one was rich and porky and fatty. And it was just mesmerizing because it was about the broth, but it was also about the noodles I think it was probably the first time I recognized that the noodles themselves Were something special and then it had all this contrast as you eat it because you get the pork belly the chashu that sort of flakes apart falls apart and and slurp that up and then you get a bit of pickled ginger some spring onions a bit of crunchy bean sprout and it's just this sort of like really involving bowl of food.
Um, and that was sort of my ramen moment. That was, that was really what kicked it off. And it really did kick it off. Like, I, I went to Daikokuya probably on average every other week for, it would have been two or three years. Until the time I left L. A. We were regulars there. Me and my friends, or my girlfriend.
And, um, they only really served one thing. So that's how, that's how good it was. It just kept me coming back just for that one particular thing. But, you know, during this time I also went to, I applied for a research grant in 2005. Or, uh, 2004, something like that to go and study noodles. Cause I was already studying Japanese history and culture.
I majored in Japanese studies. And, um, I, I put this pitch together, sort of studying the history of the different kinds of noodle cultures in Japan, soba, udon, ramen, and the differences between them and, and why they were established where they were. But anyway, I wound up focusing most of my research on the Shin Yokohama Ramen Museum.
And that trip was also like just this massive education in terms of. how significant, how big the dish is, both in terms of sort of its, its cultural impact and how, how much of a sort of, uh, nostalgic food it is for people in Japan, but also how really, really regional and diverse it is and how you could live a whole lifetime eating ramen every day and not ever reach the end of it, basically.
[00:10:29] Lucy: What I'm really curious about is that it's obviously such an important dish to you. Well, you know, like I guess dish is maybe diminishing it slightly. Um, But this is your, this is your sixth book. Yeah, right? Why did it take you so long to write a book about ramen?
[00:10:46] Tim: The publishers are running out of ideas.
Not really.
[00:10:52] Lucy: Like finally you can do it Tim, you can do the ramen book.
[00:10:56] Tim: The funny thing is, um, that's a great question. So my very first book, Nanban, is about the food of Kyushu and a little bit of Okinawa with some of my own sort of takes on that type of food and what I had been serving at pop ups in London at the time.
And there's a big chapter on ramen, but it's really quite basic. Like, uh, at the time I thought, oh, I'm publishing these recipes that are, you know, they're going to be great because it's going to showcase a little bit about... The diversity of at least within Kyushu and the different styles there, Champon and Kumamoto Ramen and things like these, um, which is still some of my favorites.
But really like, the, the, the recipes are too basic in that book. They, they weren't that well researched. There's not a lot of information on the, almost no variation actually, information on the variation in terms of tare and noodles in them. Um, it's a bit too simplistic. It's a bit too, uh, too much of an overview I guess.
So. It's not like I was sort of itching to do another ramen book for a long time, but this, this was a good opportunity to really dive deeper. There's less of the regional variations, but more in terms of a sort of nuts and bolts understanding of how those variations are made basically, uh, in each element within them.
But getting into the sort of, you know, why now side of it to answer that question is doing these books is, has always been. Collaboration I guess you could say between me and the publisher and you know They have mostly to be honest been ideas that have come from my publisher and they said we want to do this Can you do it and I've said?
Okay, or no But with ramen it felt like something I could do But it was daunting still it was Because it is such a huge topic and it's one of these things where it's like there's a Mickey Mantle quote I read recently where I think he said something like It's amazing to realize how little you know about the game you've been playing your whole life.
Something like that. And, and I really felt that writing the ramen book. On the one hand, as I was testing recipes, I was like, oh good, these recipes are working. And it's like, well, yeah, of course they are. I've been making ramen for a long time. But on the other hand, I was like, man, but I can't, you know, there's still so much I don't know.
And there's so much that I, I can't fit in the book. And it's like, I don't know, I've done my best to, um, say what I think I guess is important about ramen, but try to encourage people to do their own extended research, I guess. Which people do anyway, they don't need me to tell them that.
[00:13:40] Lucy: Yeah, very true. I feel like it's something that people have very strong opinions about, so that must have been quite a daunting task in some ways.
[00:13:47] Tim: It is, it is scary. There is a very big sort of ramen nerd community. Um out there on the on the internet I use the word nerd mostly affectionately With some caveats, yeah, because I am one of them anyway but yeah so far the response from that community from you know people I I Follow and chat to on Instagram and stuff has been really positive But I'm not gonna go hunting around reddit or whatever for comments about Where my book has fallen short or got it wrong or whatever like, you know things like that because yeah I don't know what it is about ramen, but it seems to really Get a lot of people very passionate and that's the thing.
I didn't I didn't want to let them down I guess more than anything
[00:14:32] Lucy: Yeah, that's, that's funny. Actually, I was going to ask you what you think it is about ramen in particular that does inspire this kind of cult like devotion, but I guess it's one of life's great mysteries.
[00:14:43] Tim: I think about this all the time, to be honest.
And so I think for one thing, there is an undeniable sort of impact of this dish, even at its sort of most soothing and subtle, it's still like a large portion of salty food with a filling amount of noodles in it and broth. And it's got, you know, bags of umami and all this contrast, like, like you'd get from so many different kinds of foods that also inspire a similar kind of nerdy devotion, like burgers or pizza, you know, these are similar foods that you can really fiddle with and tinker with.
But I also think that there is something, you know, I don't want to get too, I don't know. Ethnographic or something, but there is a certain kind of person who is attracted to ramen into making it That and I I put myself in this category that I think is a kind of a control freak kind of personality um People who really like to sort of like dial in specificities of a recipe and a process because Ramen isn't something that's technically hard to make you don't need like Good knife skills.
You know, I look at people who make sushi and I watch their hands and I'm just like it's like a magic trick to me. It's so amazing. Ramen is boiling stuff. It's really like if you have a head for sort of math and processes um Good ramen is achievable. Um, it is much less about, I think, technique than it is about numbers, in a way.
And I think that attracts a certain kind of person. And I am, I am sort of in that camp. I, I, I am a kind of numbers guy, but I am also a pinch of this, a pinch of that guy. And there's room for that in ramen as well. Like, from bowl to bowl, you're always tasting, always tweaking. So, it's not all about the numbers, but...
I think if you are somebody who likes to, I don't know, get into percentages in terms of hydration or temperatures and timings and stuff like that, it can be a satisfying project.
[00:16:53] Lucy: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it is. I mean, I obviously know a lot less about ramen than you do, but to me, it strikes me as it is a numbers thing, but it's also a taste thing, right?
And I think that's, it's about tasting a bowl of something and knowing what it needs. And I think that, that arguably is a...
[00:17:09] Tim: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, there is always, you know, when I'm testing recipes and I think when anybody is, you'll take a slurp and another one and think it needs something. And then it is about what, figuring out what that thing or those things are.
This is really important because I think a lot of people make ramen at home and they think, Oh, it's not very good. And I think that anybody who makes. Ramen when they're first starting out including me have had this experience and that's when these sort of five elements really come in you know that the noodles have brought the today the oil and the toppings and if any one of those things is sort of out of whack if it's Not right, or if it's too much or too little the whole bowl sort of feels unsatisfying so like Writing this book has actually sort of driven that home to me because when I first started out In particular, I thought, oh, it's all about the broth, and I think that's because of my my ramen moment going way back to 2005 or whatever.
When I first had that spoonful of broth, I thought, oh my god, this is what it's all about. So I spent a long time trying to nail the broth and kind of neglected the other elements in the bowl. And it took me a long time to figure out, like, okay, no, you need to work on the tare. You need to make sure the noodles match.
You need to... You know, really figure out those toppings and what works and what doesn't and the oils and everything like that. So it comes with experience, I guess you, you know, the more, you know, the better you get and the better you can troubleshoot, I suppose.
[00:18:39] Lucy: It makes sense with these five elements that you're talking about in regards to the way that you've structured the book, but in some ways it's quite an unusual structure for a recipe book because most of the actual, what we would consider to be recipes, where it's amounts of things that are going together to make something, they're for elements of the dishes rather than the dishes themselves, which I guess is the nature of ramen, but um, yeah, as I was kind of reading through it, it did strike me as Um, yeah, kind of intriguing in a way was did you know that's how you wanted to structure it the whole time?
[00:19:10] Tim: I did and now I have I have a little bit of regret in terms of not putting more Recipes in there that you I can say. Okay. Here's a ramen that you can do start to finish in X amount of time, you know, boom boom boom. You can do it in an hour. You can do it in a day That's a purely commercial thought because I know that you know from experience And just from seeing what's out there, people want recipes that they can cook regularly.
It's not that you can't cook ramen regularly, but it is a bit of a project. You need a sort of solid two days to put together a bowl from scratch. And, you know, I did a talk at a bookshop in Bath where somebody was like, Well, what can I, what recipe do you recommend from the book where, you know, that I can make, like, every day?
And I was like, uh, Ha ha ha. I was like, you can't, well, what I've been telling people now is, um, all of the elements have different uses outside of a bowl of ramen, like the chashu recipes in particular. You could have those on a bowl of rice with some greens and it'd be a great meal. The oils are great for roasting vegetables, or dressing salads, or all kinds of different things, making mayonnaises and dressings.
Uh, and then there are ones that are sort of more stand alone, like there's a whole chicken ramen recipe where you sort of, you poach the chicken and that becomes your broth and your toppings and you just add noodles basically. Or my favorite, or one of my favorites, which is the Leftover Nando's one, uh, Leftover Nando's Ramen, which sounds stupid, and it is, but it was surprisingly good, otherwise I wouldn't have put it in the book, so like, And then that kind of thing is there to show people, like, You know, anything can be ramen, and you can, once you know the basics, once you have good noodles, and understand seasoning in particular, anything can become ramen, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a big project, and in fact, the book's being translated into German, and um, they don't have Nando's in Germany, so they were like, what do we do, and I said, what we settled on was just like, well, basically we can just tell people, Order any chicken from your favorite chicken shop, follow this process, season it up how you like it, and you'll have a pretty good bowl of ramen.
That's the truth, I think, so. Yeah, I mean, if I, I don't know. Like I said, like, I, I, I want people to cook from it. And I, I, I always want it to not be too, too nerdy. But unfortunately, that's sort of the nature of the dish. And I've been describing the book as a, as a one for serious beginners, like I don't think it's, it's not incredibly nerdy or detailed, not as much as it could be anyway, but having said that, like, you have to be the kind of person who really wants to...
Set the time aside to make a proper ball.
[00:21:56] Lucy: Yeah, for sure. I'd also just like to give kudos to the Nando's recipe for shouting out one of the underrated Nando's menu items, which is the chicken livers! I love the Nando's chicken livers! Yeah, well what I loved about the recipes that you've included for, yeah, the Nando's leftovers that you've, um, that you've mentioned and also the Full English ramen and the, uh, Wisconsin beer and cheese ramen.
Um, they're just really fun. Like they're just like, it feels very like funny to me. Um, and I found it quite surprising in a book that, you know, as you're saying, this isn't a book for serious nerds, but it is a book that takes ramen seriously. And I really liked that, that there was space for that element of humor like that.
I kind of really appreciated that. And they seem like really great recipes. I'm excited to try them.
[00:22:40] Tim: Thanks. I mean, this is sort of a sticking point as well. It's because. There's a, there is this urge with any kind of food, and I think, you know, ramen as well, which is to sort of be protective of some kind of idea of authenticity.
Which is a really tricky one with ramen, because I do respect that, and I, you know, I will certainly like be unsatisfied if some kind of ramen doesn't, certainly if it doesn't follow the rules, i. e. like it's made incorrectly, it doesn't have the right noodles, things like that. Or if, if people describe it as one certain kind of style and it doesn't represent that style.
But, all throughout ramen history, and especially now, in Japan, there are variations that are based on just one individual chef's sort of idiosyncrasies and creativity. I mean, there's a pizza ramen in the book. And I, I, I know people would probably look at that and they think, ah, that's not, you know, that you're just being silly.
That's, that's not legit. And, you know, we had this at the restaurant too. We did a curry goat ramen and there's a French onion ramen in one of my other books. And I was just curious because when I make these things, I, I, I, they're done sort of in the spirit of this sort of creativity that you get in the ramen world in Japan.
Um, and that is one of the things that makes it special. So I just googled it, and it turns out there is a French onion ramen being served in Japan, and it's even got a pastry lid. Incredible. Yeah, this kind of like silliness, I think it's important, like it's a serious business ramen, but it also allows for a lot of fun and creativity.
I think that's part of, I think part of the reason behind that is because it's always had this, This status of being not quite Japanese, you know, for decades and decades after it was introduced to Japan, it was referred to as Chinese food, as chuka soba or Chinese soba. And it still sort of holds on to that in some, some cases, especially among like older generations.
And I think that that, um, has allowed people in Japan to sort of blow it up a bit and say, well, you know, this is not... our food, we're not following strict traditions here, so we can have a bit of fun with it. As long as the rules are followed, anyway.
[00:24:59] Lucy: Yeah, fun within the rules. The best kind of fun. I wanted to talk to you about, uh, Nanban, actually, because I know it's no longer running, but, um, I don't know, it feels like I can't talk to you about your ramen book without asking you about your ramen restaurant.
What did you learn about cooking ramen in that setting?
[00:25:18] Tim: Oh, God. Um. What did I learn? Okay, so If I could sort of reframe the question a little bit people are often asking me are you ever gonna reopen or open another one and The answer is basically no um, it's just One thing I've learned is about myself, which is that i'm not really I'm not really cut out to work in a restaurant in the sense that running a restaurant or working in a restaurant is often about firefighting and solving problems as they come up.
You never have a day at a restaurant, or almost never, where everything just goes smoothly. You're always dealing with broken equipment or staff not turning up or, or some little minor disaster one right after the other. I think that people who work in restaurants, they kind of thrive uh, in those kinds of I, I like things to be much more under control.
So if I were to ever open another one, I would try to maintain that control by having it be a much smaller venue, like what you typically find in Japan and, and having fewer staff so that I can sort of spend more time with each one of them, more sort of one on one time talking to them through the whole.
Process and getting them to understand the dish from the ground up because the problem with having a bigger team is that you've, you've sort of got one guy off in the corner, chopping onions and you've got one person on the other side of the kitchen, making the garlic oil or whatever. And it's hard for them to see it all come together.
Basically, like we tried to move people around the kitchen as much as we could at Namban, but you still end up sort of in this. Sort of old school brigade system almost where one person's doing one thing on one section and one person's doing another. So that's, that's hard and that's, that's really not how ramen shops operate in Japan generally.
You have everybody doing everything in the line. So you can really, like there's no head chef in a ramen shop in Japan. It's just a few people putting a bowl together basically and then being involved with every part of that bowl. So keeping it small, keeping it under control, keeping the menu small as well so that you have more Focus, I guess, on really getting every element right.
This is what I would do if I were to do it again. And then, sort of, some lifestyle choices. That would be different. For one thing, I would love, and I don't know if this is possible with London Rent, but I would love to be able to like, sell the broth until it runs out, and then close up at 3pm. You know, like, So I can have a life as well, and pick up my kids from school and stuff like that.
Charge a lot for the ramen. I would love to be able to charge 20 pounds, 25 pounds for a bowl of ramen so that then you can pay the staff more so that you can buy the better ingredients. You know, there's this real expectation in the UK and in Japan and in Japan, it's much more fair, I think, but like people want ramen to be cheap, but I think that that's part of the appeal of the dish.
But. It's expensive, making ramen is like, it's an expensive process, like, the noodles that we get are, you know, 75p a portion sometimes, the broth itself can cost a pound with the amount of bones that go into it, you've got the toppings and everything, and then of course the staff at the rent, and it's, it's, it's not cheap, and nowadays, sort of the going rate for ramen in London is probably around 15 pounds, which I think is fair, absolutely fair, but I think it actually probably should be more.
Just to make a more sustainable business, basically. So, yeah. Sorry, I don't know if that answers your question, but, um...
[00:29:00] Lucy: No, I think it does answer your question. I think I actually, I actually misphrased the question slightly, which was, what have you learned from cooking ramen in that setting, not what have you learned about it, which I think is slightly different.
So I think you did actually answer the question that I meant to ask. Right. So that's great. We both got there. Um, but yeah, that's really in, that's so interesting because I think something that really, yeah, something that really came to me when I was reading the book was that, um, it seems unbelievable that a bowl of ramen could cost as like less than 20 pounds when you consider the work that goes into it.
So yeah, I can, I completely understand where you're coming from there. Um, and also I, I feel like. Ramen shops aren't really a thing that we have here, right? It's, they're kind of an outlier, like, I think, I mean, I'm, I don't know if there's any... kind of exceptions to that rule that you, you know, and you want to tell us about.
But yeah, it's not really a concept that a lot of people are familiar with.
[00:29:55] Tim: You're right. We have ramen restaurants. You know, these places can be quite dedicated and specialized to some degree, but they all, including us, they all serve other dishes, small plates, stuff like that. Which of course, isn't like unheard of in Japan either.
You get, you know, all kinds of standard side dishes like rice or. Karaage, stuff like that, gyoza, um, and you even have like ramen izakaya in Japan that have fuller menus as well. But I think there's less of an emphasis generally in the UK on, on specializing, uh, and that's, that's in any genre of cooking.
You know, we, we don't really have dedicated yakitori places. We have very few sort of dedicated okonomiyaki places. Even sushi, I mean, people now... I think have more respect for sushi and the whole omakase experience, where you get sushi and you get it in a way that is, the chef basically dictates. But, yeah, beyond that, people, I mean, we, it's funny, we, we had people walk out of the restaurant because we didn't serve sushi.
Or because we didn't serve prawn tempura. Like these sort of dishes that people expect from Japanese food, and they think, oh, you're a Japanese restaurant, you must serve it. Which, I don't know where that comes from, um, it's, it's very, very different from Japan. And even to some extent from America, where, you know, you go to a restaurant for that one thing that they do.
I think part of it is that people go out here more, more to socialize than anything, rather than to sit down and eat the food. But I don't know, that's oversimplifying it, because obviously... Well, ramen is different. Ramen is not a social food in Japan. You order your food, you usually go alone. If you go with a friend, you don't talk to them.
You sit down, you slurp, and you leave.
[00:31:42] Lucy: No, I think, I really think you're onto something here, because I think when you, um, it made me think about this, actually, when you, when you introduced the full English ramen, and you kind of justify writing this recipe because you make a comparison between the idea of going to a cafe and having a full English and having ramen in a ramen shop.
And I think, I think there's actually like a real, there is a real parallel there. Like you talk about it being quite a working class food, which I think is really accurate. And also like, I think people would often, I guess there is some element of socializing in a cafe and it is a. You know, third space or whatever you want to call it, but there is also like an element that you're going there to fuel up and like, you might enjoy how it tastes, but it feels quite like, um, I don't know what the word is, but you're not going there for kind of like a, an elevated, I hate that word, but like a kind of rarefied dining experience.
It's very like you're there to like fuel. So I guess it is comparable.
[00:32:34] Tim: Get the protein and get the fat and get the carbs in. And get out. And get out. I mean, a cab is probably a friendlier place to linger than most ramen shops, but. And that's an important point, too, is, is these, because there's a, there's a contingent in, in the ramen scene that sort of wants to elevate, it wants to make everything a little bit more refined.
And I have respect for that. But, like in the case of a full English, that doesn't necessarily make the dish better. Like, sometimes the best ramen is the sloppiest, most, like, thrown together thing. Like, I, I, I mentioned Ramen Jido in the book, which, which does have, of course, a, a certain process that goes into it, and a, a, a certain amount of thought.
But it is also, like, Ramen Jido is one of the most chaotic, dirty... Ramen shops I've ever seen, and I'm not the only one who thinks this, like, you go in there, and I'll never forget this, the chef, the master, he's in there dipping his hands into boiling noodle water to check if the noodles are done, with his fingertips, and he's got a bandaid on one of them, and it's like, and there's another guy stirring the broth with a big wooden beam, it looks like a fence post, and like, there's grease all over the walls, And you just go in there and you think, man, this is not, but, but then it comes down to taste and it's about like, it's about experience and, and I guess a certain kind of technique.
It's, it's not about like dialing in individual elements and making sure that everything is just right. It's about sort of adjusting on the fly and, and it's about filling you up cheaply. It's, and that to me is as important, if not a more important sort of aspect or part of, of ramen culture is this sort of like.
You know, here's something that is made to a certain level of care, but also just meant to sort of like put meat on your bones and fill you up cheaply without being at all pretentious or precise, basically. And I really do think that that is sort of an important part of ramen culture I want people to understand.
Because the original ramen, at least if you read sort of the history books on it, uh, like Slurp by Barrett Kushner is my favorite. He describes one of the original sort of proto ramen, Champon, as a dish of scraps. Like, literally like, and it still is in a lot of ways. It's bones, and like, Not prime cuts of pork and wheat flour.
Like it's a cheap, simple, humble dish made from nothing special. I think if you can get that, if you can, if you can start with not anything special ingredients that make a great bowl of ramen. Then, you're a pro. You've got all my respect, basically. If you start with great ingredients and make a great bowl of ramen, it's like, eh, who cares?
Anybody can do it.
[00:35:29] Lucy: Something from nothing. That's what we want. I wanted to ask you about, um, kind of that idea of being an expert. Um, because it's something I sort of think about a lot when it comes to, I guess, the voices we hear in the food world. And... Japanese food, I feel like in this country, there are obviously people who have been writing about it for a long time, but there isn't kind of a, a big breadth and wealth of voices, it's kind of a few people, and I wonder how you feel about being seen as this expert voice, particularly as somebody who's not Japanese.
[00:36:02] Tim: Yeah, I don't know. Um, I, um, for one thing, it's all relative. And if you're the guy in the room who knows the most about something, or more than anybody else, rather, They're going to call you the expert, whether or not you feel that yourself. And they're going to be looking to you for answers. And I accept that.
Like, if I, if people come to me and they say, we would like to know about Japanese food to some degree, whether it's in the form of a book or doing the radio or whatever, I'll say, okay, here's what I know. Here's my opinions on it. Here's what I've learned. But, you're absolutely right that I can't be the only one and I can't be, I can't be the first stop, basically.
Um, I think you've got to find the right person for the right job. So, I'll give you an example where I didn't do that. Or I did not follow that rule. That's my vegan book. That's the book I probably shouldn't have written. I did my best. They asked me, can you do a vegan book? And I said, okay, I know some things about that.
But really, that's a whole other tradition in Japan. And I mentioned it in the book, there's shojin yori, which is this Buddhist vegetarian tradition. Um, and I said, I basically say in the book, like, I don't know enough about this to write about it, so here's a bunch of other dishes I can write about.
Whereas, in retrospect, I probably should have passed on that one and said, I'm not your expert here. I can do ramen. I can do easy Japanese home cooking. I can do izakaya food. But there's somebody else out there who is going to be able to explain this better. So I guess that's sort of the thing is you've got to find the right expert for the right topic.
And when it comes to Japanese food and I, you know, any, any kind of food really, there is so much within that food. It's not just one thing. There are individual dishes. There are sub genres. Um, there's historical recipes. There's sort of modern fine dining. There's all these different elements to all these different foods.
And so it's about sort of, I think, uh, knowing, figuring out what your wheelhouse is and then staying within that to some degree. Then it's a two way street. It's like, uh, you know, people have to, when they're looking for expertise, they have to find the right person just as much as people who are in that position have to say yes or no, basically.
And one thing I would, I would like to see more of are, and this is again a situation where it's sort of a two way street. I'd like to see more interest in regional Japanese food, and then finding the right person to talk about that. I did a book on Tokyo as well, Tokyo local foods. And then the topic came up at the publisher, it's like, okay, well, what about Kyoto?
What about Osaka? What about Okinawa? All these other kind of regions. Like, yeah, absolutely, somebody should do these books. But not me. And also, the demand has to be there. That's a commercial consideration. But like, you know, would a book on Kyoto food sell? I don't know. But if it does, then absolutely it should be done.
And it should be somebody who really knows that cuisine well to do it. Yeah,
[00:39:20] Lucy: I think that's a really good point, and this is all very much tied in with the commercial aspect of it. Kind of, when you frame it in that way, it feels strange that the people who have the most power in which voices are heard in food are the people who are trying to sell something, which obviously, like, in the society we live in.
Makes a lot of sense, like, it's the way that we live, but it's also, like, quite, it's quite fucked up, and, yeah, and, you know, I appreciate you sharing that about the, the vegan book, I think that's really interesting to have had that reflection that actually, you know, outside of the moment that you agreed to do it, um, maybe somebody else could have written it, but it's also, I respect that it's really hard to say no to those things.
[00:39:58] Tim: Well, that's it, I mean, this is now my livelihood, this is my career. And so, like any sort of, basically, freelancer, it's hard to turn down work. Although, now, luckily, some of the books are paying royalties, so I have a little bit more financial freedom to say no to things, basically. And we've had conversations with the publisher, and we're, to be honest, we're a little bit stuck right now.
Because, you know, finding Venn diagram where it's something that they want. Something that readers want and something that I want and also can do That's becoming harder and harder to pin down. So You know, I could write about Japanese food forever, because that's the nature of the subject. It just, it goes on forever, but it would require more research, sort of, on the ground in Japan.
I'm limited by living here.
[00:40:50] Lucy: We all are limited by living here.
[00:40:52] Tim: Tell me about it. So, it's, it's, yeah, it's a tricky one. And, you know, I'm at the point now where we... What I would love to do is sort of do what Oto Lengi has started doing with these co authored books And I don't know exactly what sort of form that would take if it would ever take form But like because I love writing the books and I love the sort of learning and research that goes into them but It'd be great to sort of collaborate with people on specialist subjects who who who know more than I do basically and get them Get their perspective in there Their voices.
Sometimes I think, to be completely honest, it's like, well, I've done the writing, and I've enjoyed it, and I still enjoy it. But at this point, it's almost like, well, I want to be the commissioning editor now. I want to start finding other people who I think are interesting and could write interesting things about Japanese food.
And putting them out there, because I want to see their books, you know? I don't have that power other than recommending people, I suppose.
[00:41:50] Lucy: This is, I love this. I mean, you could do this, Tim. I believe that, you know, an independent publishing house that publishes. But was it, yeah, I mean, to come back to what you said about the Ottolenghi model, I think that's such a good point.
Um, and it is such, I think that's such an interesting and valuable use of a platform that he has. To really bring people in, and I think it was something that he maybe didn't always do and has definitely made more effort to, um, give people the credit they deserve in, in this way. And I think that's, that would be a really interesting avenue for you to go down, um, and I personally would love to see it.
[00:42:25] Tim: Tell my publisher. I don't know.
[00:42:29] Lucy: I'll tag them in there. It is so difficult because there are so many people with fantastic ideas and, but yeah, it's about the market at the end of the day and, and that's, the trouble is that people buy books from things they know about already, I guess.
[00:42:45] Tim: There are an awful lot of Japanese cookbooks that are basically kind of the same book, which are classic, simple home cooking books.
I honestly, I love those kinds of books. I really do. And I think the thing is you can, um, you can have both, you can have the sort of simple Easy recipes, accessible recipes, that are also sort of more specific to different regions or subcultures of, of Japan. I'm working on a book about Hokkaido food right now, which is sort of a lifelong dream project.
And there's a lot of stuff that I, I can't really put in the book because it's, it's sort of too difficult even for me, in terms of technique or sourcing ingredients in particular. But there's also plenty of stuff that is super simple. And delicious, and that uses ingredients that are really widely available.
I almost think of it as, you could do it almost like a Trojan horse. You can write a book that says on the cover, like, easy Japanese comfort food or whatever, and have the book be like half that, and then have that other half be like, a bunch of weird shit. Not weird shit, but you know what I mean, like, here's a bunch of stuff maybe people don't know about, and, and, get them to, uh, expand their Japanese food horizons.
Almost in a sneaky way.
[00:44:04] Lucy: I mean I think there's something in that. I just interviewed Clarissa Wei who has a book out called Made in Taiwan and um, she basically was like, none of these recipes are easy. Like, you need to understand this is not like an everyday cookbook that people are going to use every night.
This is a process of documentation. Like, this is... I mean, obviously, politically, Taiwan is in a very different position to Japan, and that's kind of some of the motivation for writing the book, was that if we don't write these recipes down now and speak to these people about what they cook, we might never have the chance again, which is obviously a, there's a lot more impetus there, but, you know, I, It's, it made me really think about the idea of what a recipe means because I think I've been guilty in the past of writing off the recipe book as kind of quite a cosy, um, you know, thing.
And I love recipe books, I have many, but I think I've really come to understand its power as like a political tool. Yeah. So yeah, there you go.
[00:44:58] Tim: That is, uh. Interesting thing you're bringing up, actually, because part of the challenge of writing the book about Hokkaido is addressing Ainu food. Ainu are this indigenous group in Hokkaido and also live in the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin.
And they were basically, their culture was almost wiped out by the Japanese imperial government in the late 19th century. But now it's having this cultural revival. And even talking about that story... As an outsider to the culture, feels like almost something I don't want to touch. It has to be talked about, but like, it doesn't feel like it's my place to criticize or politicize.
So this is something I'm like, just being, trying to be very mindful of at the moment. Um, while also realizing that this is a, uh, this will be an introduction to this food culture that a lot of people don't know about. So like. It is tricky, and I think that what I'm trying to do, like what I've sort of, uh, Uh, my strategy that I've landed on is, uh, is not be overtly political, Not sort of give my two cents in the book too much, But just in talking about it, you are sort of making a statement.
Mm. Whether or not people sort of receive that statement or not I guess is up to the reader, And how strongly I sort of convey it, but like, The story has to be told, I suppose. And that in itself is kind of political. This is the thing. My, my job is really like, I consider myself sort of a professional enthusiast.
My job is to sort of like say, Hey, look at all this great stuff. Look at, look at what we can learn from Japan. Cause it's, it's brought me a lot of joy and understanding not to say, Ooh, no, no, no. Bad things here, like, you know, that, that feels hypocritical in a way, and, and just not my place, but on the other hand, like, you can't avoid it sometimes, so, it's tricky, it's really tricky.
The sort of main tension in the book, I guess, is, and I think this is a tension in ramen, making ramen generally. Is the sort of the balance between doing something properly and sort of by the books and nailing the basics and also making your own. Because I think that this is not just about ramen, this is about Japanese food generally.
Because I think that every type of Japanese food has that, has both those things within it. And I've talked in the book and elsewhere about how... Noodle cultures like udon and soba don't see as many regional variations and as many sort of creative takes on it in Japan But that's less and less true. And and I think that nowadays when I go to Japan I go to udon shops or soba shops I'm amazed at actually what chefs are doing with it.
I had an udon moment in Shinjuku Several years ago where they made a kind of a carbonara udon But I don't think they invented or anything like that, but it was basically like hot udon Served with a little bit of So you top with butter, cheese, and a slab of tempura bacon. And I was just like, I didn't know udon could be this.
And, and, but they'd also, obviously they knew what they were doing in terms of making the noodles and, and the, the, the fundamentals. And I think that, you know. When people talk about what you can or can't do with food, especially if it's not your culture's food, there's not that many limits in terms of like, if you want to go crazy with toppings or, or creative takes on something.
You know, I already mentioned the pizza ramen, which exists in Japan, or, or curry ramen, or all these different things. French onion ramen, whatever. But if you haven't sort of respected the basics and got the, the fundamental understanding right, then you can't do it. I'm not gonna say can't, but like, And not just because it's sort of disrespectful, but also because it just won't be good, like you have to sort of...
And also you gotta, you gotta eat. You gotta eat as much ramen as you can to sort of understand it. You really do. It's not just about the making and understanding the process. It's about understanding the sort of sensory impact, I guess. And how the noodles feel when you chew them. And how the hot lard on top works, and all this stuff.
It really is like... When you have a bowl of ramen in it, it doesn't work. Or when it does, rather. That is one of the hardest things to describe because it's about so many different things sort of coming together. And understanding, I guess, the fundamentals will help you understand what makes that alchemy happen, I guess.
That's what I want to say. Yeah, it's a very fun dish to play around with, but... You know, do your homework, . That's all.
[00:50:07] Lucy: Lecker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy. Dear Love, thanks to my guest, Tim Anderson. Rama Forever is out now published by Hardy Grant as part of this monthly LE Book Club. I'll be writing about the book over on the Le Substack and Patreon. Have you been cooking from it too? Come and chat about your favorite risk.
Or tag me on Instagram any dishes you've made from it. I'd love to see them. And before I go, I'd like to remind you that you can also sign up as a paid subscriber to support Lekka on Apple Podcasts, Patreon, Substack as well. Links will be in the show notes. There's a series that's running at the moment, very slowly, thank you for your patience, about food packaging called Out of the Box.
So subscribe to get full access to that. And to any paid subscribers who are listening here, anyone who's. Subscribe recently. Thank you so much for your continued support. It's much appreciated music in the episode is by blue dot sessions. Thanks very much for listening.