Permission To Write with Melissa Thompson
The writer and cook Melissa Thompson talks about her book Motherland; a very personal history of Jamaica.
Melissa weaves the history of the country so elegantly with her own story in a way that makes it impossible to ignore that the violent history of colonialism in Jamaica is to do with all of us in Britain. As you’ll hear us talk about, she uses the physical walls of the Drax Estate in Dorset, where she grew up, to demonstrate how ingrained Britain’s colonial legacy is in the very fabric of our life here - and it’s mostly been buried.
I also asked Melissa how she approaches translating recipes which are very personal to her into a format which can be comprehensible and replicable by anyone who buys her book. Is anything lost or compromised in this process of translation?
Motherland is out now, published by Bloomsbury.
This is the third of three episodes this month about contemporary personal food writing and memoir. The first can be found here and the second here.
Ben McDonald creates original illustrations for Lecker - find them on the Lecker Twitter and Instagram.
If you’re in a position to, please considering supporting Lecker. Buy merch here and become a Patron at patreon.com/leckerpodcast. This month's exclusive episode will include more from this conversation with Melissa!
You can find out more about how to support Lecker (including one-off donations) at leckerpodcast.com/support.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Transcript below the embed!
Lucy Dearlove 00:02
This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Melissa Thompson 00:10
What what's really nice about life...is like all these things that you go through, they might frustrate you or they might anger you, and you think, oh that's a bit shit. But to be able to put that into a...into a book has been, like, amazing.
Lucy Dearlove 00:20
When we're thinking about personal food writing, what happens at the place where it intersects with historical writing or political writing? And what about permission? Who is granted permission to write whatever they want? Melissa Thompson is a food writer I've admired for years now. And her book, Motherland, came out last month. It's a book of recipes for Jamaican food, some that Melissa grew up eating with her family, some that she's learned from the community around her in London from people like Maureen Tyne, who cooks incredible food from her house in Brixton and some that she's eaten on trips to Jamaica as an adult. Motherland is also a book about the history of Jamaica, and Melissa weaves this so elegantly with her own story in a way that it makes it impossible for us to ignore the violent history of colonialism and how it has to do with all of us in Britain. As you'll hear us talk about, Melissa uses the physical walls of the Drax estate in Dorset, where she grew up, to demonstrate how ingrained Britain's colonial legacy is in the very fabric of our lives here, and how it's mostly been buried. I also asked Melissa how she approaches writing down recipes which are very personal to her in a format which can be comprehensible and replicable by anyone who buys her book or reads her writing. Is anything lost or compromised in this process of translation? I went round to record with Melissa at her house on one of those freakishly hot summer heatwave days we had this year, where - unbelievably, she deserves a medal for this - she cooked me lunch. So what you making?
Melissa Thompson 02:11
So I'm making...pepper prawns, and just some. Yeah, some grilled corn. But I might take...I might do grilled corn and make it into a salad.
Lucy Dearlove 02:21
Oh, lovely.
Melissa Thompson 02:21
Just like with a bit of...
Lucy Dearlove 02:22
Charred.
Melissa Thompson 02:23
Yeah, like with a bit of red onion.
Lucy Dearlove 02:25
Nice
Melissa Thompson 02:26
and stuff. I'm just thinking anything. That's cold, but actually, that's not hot. Yeah, I might do that. Actually.
Lucy Dearlove 02:32
Is this from the book?
Melissa Thompson 02:34
The prawns are, yeah, like pepper shrimp is like a sort of classic. They are quite...do you like heat?
Lucy Dearlove 02:40
Yeah I mean, I don't want to like you know, you know, when you're like...you get really cocky about it?
Melissa Thompson 02:45
Yes!
Lucy Dearlove 02:45
As a white person I'm always like, yeah, I can handle it. And then I always...Yeah. Cos I do like heat but there's a relativity there.
Melissa Thompson 02:56
Exactly. Yeah. It's like how hot Exactly. And that's the hardest thing to quantify.
Lucy Dearlove 03:00
Yeah. Yeah. Just never know what someone else's tolerance is gonna be.
Melissa Thompson 03:05
Yeah. So I'll do some I'll do some plantain.
Lucy Dearlove 03:07
Great. Yeah.
Melissa Thompson 03:08
Yeah?
Lucy Dearlove 03:09
Love plantain.
Melissa Thompson 03:10
So my book is called Motherland. And it is about ...t's a cookbook, a Jamaican cookbook, that also details the history of Jamaica to kind of put the food within the context of Jamaica's history. And it's quite cool. Because it's a book that I was looking for, for a long time. I kept on ordering books, wanting it to be this. And it didn't exist. And that the closest is Provisions by the Rousseau sisters in America.
Lucy Dearlove 03:37
OH, I don't know that. Okay, cool.
Melissa Thompson 03:39
I've got it down there. You can have a look if you want. Yeah, yeah, obviously, the kind of the African American experience is so much different, although that's kind of African American, Caribbean, like Jamaican, which is something else. But they kind of talk about more about their family. And their kind of grandmother, I mean, it's an amazing book. And so to be able to write this...the whole thing has been a bit of a dream, because I think my agent got in touch with me on the back of my BBC Good Food column. And then I had met a publisher at a supper club, and she was like, oh, you know, like, what's exciting in the world of food at the moment? And I think I said to her, I'll think about it and I was like...Rangoon Sisters! and she was like, Yeah, we know about them already. And obviously their book, their book then came out, and then I was thinking about it, and we kind of like ended up following each other on Instagram and a while but while later I emailed her about someone else who I thought it'd be good to write a book
Lucy Dearlove 04:32
But at this point, you weren't putting yourself forward?
Melissa Thompson 04:34
No, no,
Lucy Dearlove 04:35
Very classic you I feel like
Melissa Thompson 04:36
I just like it wasn't like...really?
Lucy Dearlove 04:39
I just feel like you're...my impression that I have from you it's just that you are so...you are like the most important supportive person, like you were always lifting other people up like so. That sounds very characteristic from what I know about you to meet an editor and be like you should publish all these other people's book rather than being like I actually really want to write one.
Melissa Thompson 04:56
Well, yeah, yeah, she was like, thanks for that. Have you thought about doing it? And I was like, I dunno! Well...actually...
Lucy Dearlove 05:03
And had you thought about it?
Melissa Thompson 05:05
I had ideas, I had ideas, and but I just didn't think, I didn't think I was there yet. And it's what...this is why this whole process has been so interesting, because you have...in a way, it's almost frustrating, because obviously, the way that everything happens sequentially, like you get a column, you know, and then you get approached, you know, and then you end up getting commissioned. And obviously, like, I could have written this book, you know, three years ago, yeah, like before, before I got I got the column and everything in a way, that's quite frustrating, because, and that's why you say about, like, lifting other people up. And for me, it's almost like, it's, I think it's born out of frustration, because it's like, there are all these amazing people. And a lot of kind of, like white people, you know, I mean, like, I'll just be like, straight, a lot of white people get access to publishing easily. And it's not to say that they're not good, but obviously, they can. And they can write about whatever they want in like with whatever food they want, whether it's related to their own culture or not. Whereas for black people, and brown people, it's been a lot harder...and people, I think, from East and Southeast Asia. I think some of the most exciting, like Southeast Asian restaurants right now are... the head chef, it's a white person, or it's been founded by white person. And so now that I'm kind of in the system, it's like, oh, right, that's how it works. Because I don't I didn't know, I mean, I've been a journalist for like, what, almost 15 years or something. But I still don't know how...I didn't know how it works. I think I said before, like I wrote, it's hard to know, it's hard to know, like, how to dance. If you don't know, the moves or something. I can't remember how I phrased it. But it's like, it's almost like it's quite secretive. And then actually, you get in it. And it's like, alright, this is how it works. That's why I'm just like, everyone. So I've been trying to get quite a few people that I know, and just tried to get them, whether it's connecting them with my agent, or just like trying to, like plant the seed, like you can write a book. And you should be the person writing a book about this cuisine, because yeah, you know it, and you're good at it. And so yes, that's where that comes from.
Lucy Dearlove 06:54
Even now, I don't know, the industry is maybe broadening a little bit in terms of what gets commissioned. And but I think you're still so right about, like, whitw people can write about anything? Yes. And I think there's also a sense of like, Oh, we've got one of those already, when it comes to like specific cuisines, and there's like less of an understanding of like, what different people's perspectives can bring?
Melissa Thompson 07:14
Yes.
Lucy Dearlove 07:14
Like, you know, for example, yeah, your book is about the history of Jamaica. But it's about the history of Jamaica, from your perspective.
Melissa Thompson 07:20
Yes, yes
Lucy Dearlove 07:21
Which is why, you know, you could easily have another book about the history of Jamaica from someone else's perspective and that would also be great. Exactly! Yeah, West Winds, also, like completely different book. Great to have them both, like they both...there's space for both of them and space for more of them.
Melissa Thompson 07:28
Yeah. Well look at Riaz's book! Yeah there is space for both of them, and there's space to, there's space for plenty more, as well. And this is the, I don't know, I think things are getting are getting better. And it's exciting speaking to people who are, you know, doing amazing things, there are a few cookbooks that are kind of due to come out, which I'm really excited for. And I hope it's just the beginning. And I think yeah, I think what you say about it being a...like, this is just my perspective, obviously, my perspective growing up in the UK. And you know, what Jamaican food means to me, how I cook Jamaican food. And and I guess, you know, the further away it gets from...it gets from Jamaica, and it's always going to be like, I guess an interpretation of it. I think that's really beautiful. I think a lot of people now view the, like, the food culture, they almost don't realize that we're part of like a continuum. And this is part of the evolution of food, which is going to happen forever, rather than this is an endpoint. And so I think it's quite exciting. It just needs to be done...I think with respect, really,
Lucy Dearlove 08:33
totally. And I think it's also about understanding that. Like, there isn't a definitive, there isn't necessarily a definitive history of any one particular thing. Like it's always written from someone's perspective.
Melissa Thompson 08:43
Yes, yes.
Lucy Dearlove 08:44
Whether or not we know who that person is, if that makes sense. Like, no, history is entirely objective. But like, you know, just for example, there's a bit in your book where you write about seeing the wall of is it the Drax Estate? Yes. in Dorset, which is where you grew up? Yes. And then later coming to understand that that wall was the wall of an estate that belonged to a slave owning family. Yes. And like what, which is still a very powerful family today. And for me, like that was just so...like, you don't hear those details. Don't talk about how the actual, like physical architecture and the political system of this country is linked to the enslavement of African people. Yeah, we just don't talk about that like in that way.
Melissa Thompson 09:23
Yeah, and it's everywhere. Well, this is it. I mean, like, and obviously that realisation, because when I was working on the local paper in Dorset, and it was, I think it was like the, it must have been the...it was a 250 years or 200 years since the sort of abolishment of slavery. And at the time, I remember trying to, I don't think it was public knowledge that the Drax family were linked to slavery. So I was trying to find out so I did quite a lot about it. And then I think that came to pass a bit later after I'd left there. And I remember like he got...I'm not sure if Richard Drax had been made the MP of South Dorset at the time but I remember him walking into the Echo offices, and I was with the receptionist and they were really cool women, they were really funny. And they were sort of bit older. And he walked, he walked in, and then he kind of I think he went to a meeting or something. They like, Oh, he's such a silver fox like this. And, um, but I was just like, I mean, obviously, like, he's not...like, it wasn't him. But it's kind of the whole thing is a bit. It's quite icky. I mean, he's never really, I mean, what do you do? What do I want? I don't want him to say sorry for it. But I think it'd be quite nice to have some sort of acknowledgement or some sort of distancing. A lot of people were like, oh, but that was back in the day. And it's like, yeah, but
Lucy Dearlove 10:34
But they're still really they are still...
Melissa Thompson 10:36
Benefitting. Hugely
Lucy Dearlove 10:37
Yeah, they're still benefitting from that system. Like, you can't deny that. No, it's a physical fact that their wealth comes from that system.
Melissa Thompson 10:44
Yes, yes. Yes. And where are we? You know, like, there is no kind of, like, inherited inherited wealth. Like for...yeah, my parents were really skint. I mean, they kind of like pushed themselves up. And now they're doing all right. And I guess, you know, like, I think I'm at the stage, hopefully, where my daughter will have some sort of, but it's still like, yeah, we're almost starting from scratch. I tell you what, though, it was quite nice to be able to...like all of these things, what what's really nice about life is like, all these things that you go through, they might frustrate you, or they might anger you. And you think, oh it's a bit shit. But to be able to put that into a into a book has been like amazing, or like talk about Christopher Columbus, my dad just getting really annoyed anytime someone mentioned his name. And it's like, Dad, I've been able to put that in a book. And he's like, yeah, he's just quite. Yeah, he's quite, he's quite happy with that.
Lucy Dearlove 11:28
Because obviously, it is a book that is, has this like sort of universe, like almost universal history that is relevant to anyone really, because it's a history that we all should know about. And then it is also very personal book. So I guess like, where did you choose to kind of draw those boundaries? Like, was there stuff that you chose not to include? Like, how did you like, how did you choose what to include from the history?
Melissa Thompson 11:49
Well this is why it was so hard. Because it was it was so much information and the research, I loved the research because there were a lot of things that I kind of knew, almost by hearsay, and then to go and find them, like in kind of the like contemporaneous text was mind blowing, it was it was like, Oh, my God it was like striking gold. And then I had to, I had, like, you know, collate all that information and then put it into it, put it into an essay, and, and also I've been talking about, you know, who gets to write the history? It was, you know, like, was it is the victors that get to...I put this anatto in, but it's almost like gone....
Lucy Dearlove 12:26
Oh, is that what that smell is? Yes, it almost smells like Sichuan peppercorn. Yeah. It's like a, like a very fragrant.
Melissa Thompson 12:34
Yes. It's sort of the oil went red and then now, I think scos we've been talking so long it's lost it's colour, yeah, I've not seen that before.. It's kind of I don't know, like, even as, as a writer, and as a journalist, it's like, there was it was just the hardest thing I've ever I've ever had to write because it was, it was a series of essays. Yeah. Then also that had to stand alone, but then also sort of interplay with each other. Yeah. And so I think I just, you know, I, like, you know, when you're, when you're a writer, you get quite good at sort of, like having to be brutal to get something down to a word count. And so then it was just a case of like, as I reread it, like, you know, however, many millions of times I read those words, like, is this adding anything to the story? Or is it adding, like, like, because everything, in my opinion, added something, but it was like, What can I take out? You know, like, again, sorry, I started saying that about who gets to write the history? A lot of it, you know, the indigenous Jamaicans didn't have a written language. Yeah, so, and yeah, there are a few artifacts...I mean bizarrely in the Horniman they've got but I'm not sure where it is, but it's a Taino thing for extracting the juice from cassava. grated cassava for the bammy. I've got bammy by the way. We were gonna have fried fish Escovitch but then I couldn't go to the fish manga. Oh, great. I've never had bammy before. Okay, so I wouldn't normally serve it with this but it's quite nice. So it's just soaking in. In coconut milk. Cool. These are I bought them back from Jamaica. It's amazing. I went to go and see bammy. Did you see in the in the book the bit about the bammy? Yeah. I've got one more left and this little fly from Jamaica! It's like Jurassic Park or something!
Lucy Dearlove 14:19
Better not let it defrost. Just in case. Why did you call it Motherland?
Melissa Thompson 14:26
Well, I wanted to call it Fatherland at first. Okay. And then and then Kate was like, Oh...it was a working title. And I went to quit fatherland, and Kate was like, That's a bit weird why don't you just call it motherland. I was like, Okay. And then afterwards, like months later, and I was like, oh no, because Fatherland, cos that's where my dad's from and she was like, oh right! But I hadn't explained at the time and then also I think motherland as well, because it's like, it's it's the Motherland you don't I mean, and it's like, it's, I think, like this idea of, of like giving life but that like, I don't know I think especially with Jamaica's history it's kind of it was so like a lot of it'a so violent, so brutal, but I don't know like I think motherland almost sounds quite optimistic. And kind of, like life life like life giving really. And, you know, I think despite everything people survived, like people survived what what the Europeans were doing to them? And I think it's like a trice. It's a, it's a triumph.
Lucy Dearlove 15:23
Yeah, that makes sense. I wondered if it was a nod to because when Britain colonised Jamaica, they caught they called itself its motherland, right? It was known as the motherland. And that was really fucked up. So I did also feel like that's kind of an interesting little ironic nod. And that kind of ties into what you're saying that like survival through that, like, despite being given this, like, inappropriate mother.
Melissa Thompson 15:48
yes. I mean, it's not. And then people came here thinking that people are gonna be though, like, greeting them with open arms. And
Lucy Dearlove 15:55
yeah, which is kind of the most horrible, almost not the most horrible thing about it all, but just such another horrible detail? Yes. Yes. About the how they were misled over that.
Melissa Thompson 16:03
Yeah. And people just like spitting at them in the street and stuff like that. And it's crazy. You know, I wish I could have had that conversation with my grandparents, whether they would have told me I don't know. But yeah, about what it was really, like, I'm so glad I got to write, I got to write this book. Like, I'm sorry, I still find it kind of a bit mad, that I got to write it. But I'm so glad that I did. Because just what I've learned, and and you know, these things that you kind of take for you sort of not that I've taken for granted, but things that I've sort of thought, oh, maybe you know, like, I think that to have a bit of authority about something is just quite nice. A lot of things that I thought were the case and be able to actually well, yeah, they were the case. And I've got the evidence. I mean, the whole narrative around indigenous people in the Americas. And, you know, I grew up thinking it was just all because of, like diseases that people didn't have immunity to. And while that was true, like the Spanish were horrific, like there was
Lucy Dearlove 17:02
never heard that either.
Melissa Thompson 17:05
And, I mean, you were asking about, like, what to include what to put in, I could have kept on going with examples of what they did. But I had to just kind of like Stop it, you know, because it's just like, it's just, it's a bit much. And this is where, you know, I like to have another book about I don't know, I guess I'm not sure that anyone is going to want to include any any more of that into into a cookery book, but to be able to add any more of the history. Because it's kind of, I guess, there will be other elements that people will that people maybe want to focus on. And I think sometimes less is more, right? Because, because also I don't want people to become desensitized to it. So it's just like, right. Here's like, here's, I hope this is enough. Take it and, you know, because because otherwise, I think it just becomes a bit. Yeah, like it's just actually, ultimately this is a cookbook. Yeah, a cookbook with a with a history. And yeah.
Lucy Dearlove 18:08
Did you always know you wanted it to have that much history in it? Was that very much part of the pitch?
Melissa Thompson 18:14
Yeah, yeah, totally. And yeah, like that was really important to me. I'm sorry, this is taking...I always do this.
Lucy Dearlove 18:25
This always happens when I record with people cooking, it just ends up completely derailing the process. Entirely. My responsibility
Melissa Thompson 18:32
is because it's me trying to multitask, which is just my Yeah,
Lucy Dearlove 18:35
it's you trying to answer like quite in depth questions while also making a recipe. So we've got the we've got the corn in the pan now though.
Melissa Thompson 18:43
Yeah, so the corn 's sizzling, I'm trying to like, try and get a bit of colour to that. And then I'm gonna take the kernels off, and then I'm about to like, devein these prawns?
Lucy Dearlove 18:52
Okay. And they're beautiful big prawns
Melissa Thompson 18:56
Yeah, they're right on No, yeah, they come from they come from the supermarket, unfortunately.
Lucy Dearlove 19:00
Oh, throw them out. Something that really struck me when I was reading the book was that it feels like and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like there's a very strong oral tradition in Jamaican foods. How do you go about making that translation?
Melissa Thompson 19:18
Oh man. Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you asked me this, because I think it's, it's, it's quite an important thing. Like there's a lot of talk at the moment with recipes, especially I think, sort of recipes from like, like from across the Caribbean, I think across Africa, across South or in fact across all of Asia about how like you know, trying to get recipes from from typically your mom your grandma because it's usually the women right? And, and this idea of people being like, oh, you know, you do a handful of this and or like a pinch of this and it's like...what a handful like my hands are different sizes and It's like, and it's almost framed in this, like, with with this frustration, but actually, I think it's the most beautiful thing because it's, it's that connection to that person. And, and also it makes cooking like an intuitive process rather than kind of a prescriptive process process. And, you know, I guess we lose that. And like, over over time, and as kind of generations, I guess, get, I don't know, this, like kind of less of this, like the family unit that sort of spans generations. But and so I think actually, the kind of the oral tradition is is really lovely. And, and it's not when my when my grandma taught me how to make the curry chicken recipe. She didn't use any, any any things. It was just like, you just put this like, you know, you'd like to sort of sprinkle a curry powder and you just, you can tell that it's right. I mean, when I was doing my pop up and I was doing like I was doing like a lot of karage chicken like I never wrote the recipe I could just smell it and know when it was Yeah. And I dread to think how many, like, you know, like tons of chicken thighs when I cooked over the years. And I could just smell when it was right when the combination was right. And I think usually what that was saying about Maureen down in Brixton. Now she doesn't like none of her recipes are written down. And yeah, she's cooking for service. And she's also cooking for like catering and stuff. And yeah, recipes. None of our recipes are written down. Because it's never been part of her thing to write it down. Like she just know, she can tell she can look at it by the smell of it. Yeah. And I think you kind of lose that. It's like with like, writing a jerk recipe down...in the jerk recipe. And like if you have pimento...let me see if I've got some...
Lucy Dearlove 21:36
Is this your spice cupboard?
Melissa Thompson 21:38
Yes. Yeah, I bought back.
Lucy Dearlove 21:40
Oh, wow. Yes. Oh, very organized, very organized.
Melissa Thompson 21:43
I got a label maker for Christmas. Oh, great. It's like the best thing I've ever received. So these pimento berries are from... the smell has kind of like lessened a bit. Yeah, that's Oh, wow. And but then you smell this? And I think this is from this country, I bought this for a recipe. Oh, yes. No, it's completely different. It's all spice because people were like, oh, so I bought back so much from Jamaica and the car just stunk of cloves. Because that's why it's all spice. Right? And because it's like, what cloves nutmeg, nutmeg and cinnamon, like there are so many different jerk recipes out there. But then, and some of them call for like cinnamon and nutmeg. And like, I don't know this for certain, but I almost think that maybe that was because if you had pimento, that was that had been, you know, sitting on a supermarket shelf for a long time it loses those other notes. Yeah, and so people make it up. So what I've said, in the cookbook, I'm like smell your pimento. And if you can smell clove and everything in it, then just have the pimento berries. But otherwise, add like clove and nutmeg and cinnamon to your jerk marinade. I mean, it's still gonna taste delicious, like however people do it. But it's this thing where it's quite difficult to put something down for definite and it's just the hope that people will use that as a start off points and, and adjust it because I mean recipes will have been adjusted forever.
Lucy Dearlove 23:05
Of course, I really liked...so it's like a separate little note to the recipe that you're talking about in the jerk recipe where you write about the using the different spices if you need to. And I just really liked how that almost gives. It's almost like asking the reader to take a bit of control, which I think is...you might lose in a sense. Like, you don't have that much control when you're reading a recipe or you're cooking a recipe that someone else has written. But it's almost like you're giving permission to people to be like, make your own call. Yeah, like, yeah, and this might be how you like it. Yeah, you know, you might find out how you like it, you might want you might like it with the extra cloves, like, you know, I really liked that about it, it felt really unusual. Like I just didn't, I don't know if I'd seen a note before and I really liked it. It was just to get around with this this thing. Yeah. And that's that's related to the oral tradition as well. Right? Because that would just be...it might not necessarily be a problem in Jamaica. So people wouldn't do it. Yes. Or Yes. You know, you might know to do that if you've watched people cooking the recipe before. Yes. So it's a way of kind of giving people that information in like a non prescriptive way. Yeah, I guess. Yeah,
Melissa Thompson 24:08
totally. And also, I think whenever people, you know, if a cook... if they're cooking, a sort of a nation's dish, a nation's food for the first time, they might not feel that confident, because if elements are unfamiliar, but then, you know, trying to, I guess guide people to to you know, how ingredients should taste and use more of your senses to kind of to get to understand it and to make a judgment call yourself,
Lucy Dearlove 24:34
like when you came to be writing down these recipes that have, you know, a lot of personal significance for you. Did the format of a written recipe feel adequate for translating kind of what you wanted to say about that recipe?
Melissa Thompson 24:54
I think it's, I think this is why I went into feature writing rather than news because like brevity has never been my strong point. I think almost I want to be like, Oh, but you know, it's like this, then it's like that. And I think, I don't know, maybe like it'd be, it'd be quite nice to do it as an audiobook or something where I can be like, but you know, there's sort of so many
Lucy Dearlove 25:11
That would be so nice.
Melissa Thompson 25:15
You know, I mean, just like be able to. Yeah, I think it's I think there are a lot of reasons why sort of maybe that there have been fewer books written about Jamaican foods. I mean, mainly it's because the gatekeepers haven't permitted it. But then also, I think that it's actually the biggest reason I also think there is a bit of a thing from within within communities. There's like a kind of understandable protectiveness about it. And I think actually, for a lot of the people who are doing cookbooks for the first not for the first time it we're doing cookbooks. I mean, there's Do you know, Maria? Maria Bradford? Shwen Shwen?
Lucy Dearlove 25:55
Oh, no, I don't know her
Melissa Thompson 25:56
Oh, God. So I spoke to her for something. And she's, so she's doing a cookbook about she's in Sierra Leonean cookbook is coming out next year. And I'm so excited for it. Like we talked about the responsibility that comes with it, because it's one cookbook, I mean, this is the thing, my book, it's one cookbook for a cuisine that is that is like huge with so many different influences. When there are 20, it doesn't matter. But when there are fewer, it does matter. And I don't think there's been...so Maria was saying that she doesn't think there's there's been any Sierra Leonian cookbooks published in the UK. Wow. And so like, the pressure for that also, she's so kind of, she's so she's so brilliant. She was like, you know, and she was like, you know, I will like fucking buy a book about like, Italian food and I will fucking go out of my way. You know, she was like, it's about time that you fucking did it with our, with our food as well. Go and find cassava leaf. Go and find potato leaf like speak to people find out like, you know, like, explore go and fucking get it because that people have bottarga ina fucking recipe no one billet like, like, you know, things are what's the that's an eye. But then you have Yeah, like color cassava leaf and stuff like that. Like and people just, um, I can't you know, like, what, what can I use instead, can I use spinach just like, and I think as people who enjoy foods, there's like an assumption that they are going to be kind of inquisitive. And like, oh, yeah, all of the things I think that make people interested in food. So actually go and be inquisitive and go, you know, it's not just about reading a book, but it's about going and actually immersing yourself in that culture. Going to go into the shops and, and just familiarizing and people like, the thing about one thing I can say about foods and food people is that they love sharing, and, you know, talking to people about stuff, and it's just like, it's just, it's it's yeah, it's like it's quite exciting.
Lucy Dearlove 27:45
And so in the book there, I mean, you've mentioned Maureen already, but kind of there's a lot of recipes in the book that haven't just come from your family. They've come from sort of like chosen family. Yes. So could you talk a bit about the recipes you've included in the book from different people that you've learned over the years?
Melissa Thompson 28:01
So yeah, so it's like a combination? Well, and some things are like, so I moved to London for uni at 20. And so that kind of, because okay, I guess everyone's got their repertoire, right. So we'd have, we'd have our thing.
Lucy Dearlove 28:14
And then what was your repertoire?
Melissa Thompson 28:16
Well, it was like, carry go. Curry chicken. oxtail. Like patties. Because if you go to like, if you go to like a sort of any kind of, like celebration, or like funeral or something, like there's always gonna be the same thing. Your fried fish, fried chicken. Ackee and saltfish, obviously, all different dumplings. And then you kind of add to it as you go. I was like, you know, we're coming to London and eating at sort of, like, invariably takeaways, yeah, because there are kind of loads of Caribbean restaurants. Yeah, restaurants. Yeah. And then your repertoire kind of, sort of widens further. But then also, I think, I like Akwasi Brenya-Mensa, I did a talk with him in in, in Belfast. And he was saying that when you're, when you're cooking cuisine outside of the country of origin, you're only ever doing a version of it. And I thought that was really I thought that was really interesting. Way to, yeah, to view it because it's, it's, it's kind of true, right? And it's like, I mean, going back to the whole ingredients as well and being true to ingredients. I think, as much as I think it's important that I think I would say with like talking about Sierra Leonean cuisine, there are certain dishes that can only be made with cassava leaf, right? You can't there isn't there is no substitution, you're not gonna get the flavour for that. But then there are other things where, you know, I don't want people especially if people can't afford it, like I don't want money to be something that's going to... so if something Yeah, you know, it's something can be bought cheap or like, rather than someone having to go out and buy ingredients that they might not use all the time. Like, is there anything there are some things that you have to eat like you can only make this if you if you use this then having that kind of flexibility. The the Scotch bonnet fumes! For me the whole idea of like decolonizing like food writing and stuff is moving away from this kind of like Francophone kind of, like, on my, on the cookbook sheet I was with, with Melek. And so it was like Benjamin Ebuehi the was the economist and Melek was her assistant. It was amazing. Because obviously, Patsy was taking the pictures...Patricia Niven. Yes. Yeah. And so kind of, and I really like it. I really wanted to like, because I think Patricia, Patsy, Benji and Jen, Kay, who did the props, like their aesthetic is sort of like a soul, sort of separate aesthetics are so complimentary, that they've never worked together. And so then they kind of yeah, all came together. And it was just, it was such a dream. But then Melek and I were talking about just like the language and that kind of like, you know, we're not we're not julienning our vegetables. We are cutting them into matchday matchsticks. And it's this, and I read this thing, I don't think I think it was true about this person. It's like the language and how language can be a massive barrier when you're talking about food because you just don't get it. And and there was this thing about toss, like toss a salad. So someone literally tossed the salad like, because they just didn't I mean, what does that what does that mean to toss a, you know, to toss a salad or, and as a restaurant writer, it's so easy to, to use this like to repeat this language. Because when you get to understand it, but you know, I still don't know what broil means. I know that's an American term, but I don't know what it means.
Lucy Dearlove 31:43
Yeah, I hadn't even thought about julienne as like a bastion of French cookery.
Melissa Thompson 31:48
But yeah. To saute, All of it, like all of it, you know? Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove 31:51
Yeah. I think it's really, it's really interesting to talk about, like decolonizing work in that context, because I think sometimes people kind of hear the word and they assume it's going to be this huge, like, dramatic process of reckoning. And it's like, yeah, it should be that as well. But I will say like, a lot of it does come down to these very simple things. That might not seem that big on the surface of it, but actually, go so deep, we don't even realise yeah, like the language.
Melissa Thompson 32:16
Yes. I mean, to be honest, I don't often because it's like a word that I hear come up so much these days. And I try not to use it too much myself, because I think it can almost, but I'd rather talk about it as like what it is, rather than naming it. Like it was in practical terms. I know. Because I've said it sort of now.
Lucy Dearlove 32:33
No, but it Yeah, in the context of No, I think that makes sense.
Melissa Thompson 32:39
I'm using bottled lemon juice only for speed. Yeah. So this is actually say, because you're talking about Helen Graves. So I cooked from her book over the weekend. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Well, it's from hers and Genevieve Taylor's
Lucy Dearlove 32:55
Oh, yeah. So you posted those. Another barbecue book? Yes,
Melissa Thompson 32:58
yes. Is and so this is her charred spring onion. Salsa. So I'm gonna pour this over the salad
Lucy Dearlove 33:06
Delicious
Melissa Thompson 33:10
this is just made up basically.
Lucy Dearlove 33:12
So we've got diced red onion, diced cucumbers, some parsley and you've got the corn that you've charred and then like cut off the cob and this charred spring onion salsa.
Melissa Thompson 33:23
Thank you very much. Okay, well, I'll do this. And then I'm gonna attempt those pina coladas would be nice if I did it at the same time.
Lucy Dearlove 33:32
Oh, that's right. Honestly, like I just I can't express enough my gratitude for you cooking in this weather.
Melissa Thompson 33:40
I love I love it. And now that I've got a bit of time to think I'm I'm really relishing.
Lucy Dearlove 33:47
Yeah, cuz cooking must have just felt like worked. Well, it was work. Yeah.
Melissa Thompson 33:52
I just didn't, I didn't cook really. And so I've just got back into I mean whenever you know people talk about like cooking for cooking for joy and stuff. And if you don't if you're not happy then like it sort of translates into the food and I really believe in that and when I, after I had my daughter when I was pregnant with her I stopped doing my pop up and then I didn't really cook for a long time because I I just didn't really had I didn't have I was just I wasn't really feeling anything and and so then it was actually during lockdown. I started cooking again, so it was really nice to...
Lucy Dearlove 34:28
Does Kate cook?
Melissa Thompson 34:31
Yes, she does. But she always says she doesn't even get a chance anymore. But that's absolute bollocks cos she's really busy. So she gets home quite late. We will I think we both moan about stuff, but then actually wouldn't really want it to be that different.
Lucy Dearlove 34:46
classic I think that's that's a sign that it's a good balance. Yeah, yeah, you can both have a moan but ultimately,
Melissa Thompson 34:53
Do you cook a lot?
Lucy Dearlove 34:54
Yeah, I'm the cook in my household and Rory, my husband is...And this is this has been a sort of bone of contention over the years that I'm a real backseat cook. So he really understandably does not like that, we've kind of got to the point where like, he will cook but I'm not allowed to come and quote unquote, help. I had just I just have to stay away and then do the clearing up.
Melissa Thompson 35:22
Why? Cuz you're literally saying stuff to him.
Lucy Dearlove 35:25
Because I'll just be like, maybe like, I think a drop of water while you're cooking those or like, it might just be better if he's like, NO, get out. And that means that sometimes he makes something and I would have cooked it differently. And I just have to I just have to shut the fuck up. Yes, yes. Yes. Also, it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter. No, not. Not everything has to be perfect. Also, my cooking isn't perfect. But yeah, yeah, I do really I do really enjoy cooking.
Melissa Thompson 35:57
When...Kate made when when we were first dating, actually. And she made this. She made this teriyaki salmon. And so she still talks about this about my reaction to it. I was like, did it come from a packet? And I meant that in a....cos it was so good. Yeah, it was really good. She, she's never like, let me live that down.
Lucy Dearlove 36:17
Ya know, I can see how that's very well, meant because it's like saying, you know, this is really good packet. You can never be for me. You can never be Heinz ketchup. So yeah, if someone made homemade ketchup and it tasted like Heinz, I'd be like, Oh my god. It was like Heinz.
Melissa Thompson 36:31
So you're like a Heinz for ketchup?
Lucy Dearlove 36:34
Yeah, that's my favourite. I accept no substitutes. But Hellmans mayonnaise. Or kewpie. Yeah, um, depending on what it's for.
Melissa Thompson 36:42
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm because I like ketchup. I can be a bit more. I think I used to be quite like, sort of strict about it. But then there are a few others that I accept, like I quite like a Tiptree ketchip/
Lucy Dearlove 36:55
saying oh, I have that one is good. Actually. I have tried that. Yeah, but yeah, I haven't gotten like a fancy cafe. Okay, nice. Yeah. Are you a ketchup or brown sauce? Oh,
Melissa Thompson 37:06
in a household. It will definitely be ketchup. I like I like brown sauce. But no laughing like he has become obsessed with with ketchup. She's so fickle. She's gonna get like there was a time where I know she couldn't get enough. And now she Yeah, now she likes. I know. She's sort of a bit nice. I might drink some ketchup. Okay, do you want any rum in this?
Lucy Dearlove 37:30
why not? It's
Melissa Thompson 37:31
it's after 12 Exactly it's practically evening practically Yeah.
Lucy Dearlove 37:36
Gotta take all the all the help we can get in this weather as well. Yes. Oh my god. Amazing. So is that just pineapple blended with coconut milk and then some ice?
Melissa Thompson 37:51
I didn't have any decoration unfortunately.
Lucy Dearlove 37:55
I hink I'll live
Melissa Thompson 37:56
Ok so bammy and then I think we're done aren't we
Lucy Dearlove 37:58
Yeah. So you've just fried that.
Melissa Thompson 38:05
Yeah so it's, I soak it in coconut milk. And then and then I fry it. Yes. I love it. I love it so much like going to see the bammy place. It was so cool. It was always the dream. So you got red onion, cucumber, the charred corn a bit of red pepper. And then so parseyand the charred spring onion salsa from the weekend from Helens book,
Lucy Dearlove 38:32
and remind me what's on these poems.
Melissa Thompson 38:35
So they're pepper drawn so it's it's like annato, scotch bonnet, onion, garlic, and a bit of pimento.
Lucy Dearlove 38:48
Recipe in Motherland.
Melissa Thompson 38:49
Yes, yes.
Lucy Dearlove 38:58
Thanks so much to Melissa Thompson. Her book, Motherland is out now. I wanted to make sure that before ending this episode, I just said explicitly what a force for change Melissa has been and continues to be in food. As I made the point early on in our conversation, she tirelessly uplifts other people within the industry. As her platform grows she only seems to do this with more enthusiasm. She's uncompromising, but she's also somehow enduringly positive and optimistic in her approach. I can't wait to see what she does in the future. This was the third episode in this month's Micro Series about personal food writing. You can listen to the other episodes, one with Rebecca May Johnson and Angela Hui and one with Thea Lenarduzzi on the podcast feed now. And there's a fourth bonus Patreon episode to come which is specifically about recipes in personal writing. Melissa and I talked a bit about this in this episode. So there's more from her and there's more from it. Everyone else has been the series so far. Like it is listener funded. So patrons subscriptions are really important. You can sign up patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Music is by Blue Dot sessions and you haven't got long to wait until the next like episode. There's a trailer coming later this week for the new series that's launching very very soon. Make sure you're subscribed for that and I will be back in your feed very soon.